<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Good point ... I'm not sure that anyone involved has actually tried such a merge, or even lighter weight data munging exercises.</span></div><div> </div><div>* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron<br><blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; "> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Jean-Guilhem Cailton <jgc@arkemie.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Mikel Maron <mikel_maron@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> hot
<hot@openstreetmap.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, February 2, 2012 6:37 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [HOT] Meeting with WB about MapMaker?<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div id="yiv1574418701">
<div>
Hi,<br>
<br>
- A suggestion to make WB realize what they are getting into would
be to have them go in practice through a little merging exercise of
a freed external dataset with existing OSM data. Maybe they would
realize how complex this is. And how important the context data used
in crowdsourcing input is. (Assuming of course that they really mean
what they say about free data).<br>
<br>
<br>
- If they only care about not getting sued, how does a potential
"complicity in abuse of dominant position" sound? (In addition and
after all the problems Gogol has had in respecting the intellectual
property of others, of course. They have a significant track record
of misappropriating it).<br>
<br>
See e.g. :<br>
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/21483-google-condamne-en-france-une-tres-bonne-decision.html<br>
http://www.ecrans.fr/Google-Maps-condamne-en-France,13992.html<br>
<br>
Translated by themselves:<br>
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&sl=fr&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.numerama.com/magazine/21483-google-condamne-en-france-une-tres-bonne-decision.html<br>
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecrans.fr%2FGoogle-Maps-condamne-en-France%2C13992.html<br>
<br>
Best wishes,<br>
<br>
Jean-Guilhem<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 02/02/2012 23:38, Mikel Maron a écrit :
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; ">
<div><span>Is that too much to ask Google? They don't take
requests....</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>PS Yes they have lawyers. But not ones that care about open
data, only about not getting sued. Clearly no one who knew any
of this in practice was consulted for the MoU. But yes,
talking about open data the concepts can be obscure ... I
tried to illustrate the realities with some mapping stories: http://brainoff.com/weblog/2012/02/02/1756</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PPS I don't think that's the root cause for the Bank
(though it's clearly something OSM needs to improve. note, I
don't think GMM has the best UI either). Rather, I think they
are seduced by the association with the most powerful company
in the world, which is sexy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; ">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; ">
<div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Chris Blow <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1574418701moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:cgblow@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:cgblow@gmail.com"><cgblow@gmail.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
hot <a rel="nofollow" class="yiv1574418701moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" ymailto="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org"><hot@openstreetmap.org></a> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, February 2, 2012 5:12 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [HOT] Meeting with WB about MapMaker?<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
<div id="yiv1574418701">
<div>
<div>Hi Mikel, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
While there are several clear solutions that are
unrealistic to propose in your meeting, I would just
like to see a tool that allows users to to export
data most of the data that they create in Google
Maps.
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Is that too much to ask? I can see that
a technical barrier would be an way to
differentiate between original user data
entry and modifications of existing data. If
someone edits a big interchange with a 5
year history of 99% proprietary edits,
Google isn't going to give that data
back. But if you are mapping completely new
roads and POIs in the developing world ...
you should be able to do a significant
export.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PS I don't understand how the WB got
itself into this, aren't they all lawyers?
How can OSM make it clearer that there is a
cost to using proprietary data? It has a
toxic touch.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PPS it seems like better UX and design at
OSM could be the root cause of them working
with Google in the first place — does this
seem accurate? Or are there deeper
architectural/technical/business reasons
that WB is going with Google?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>c</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>On Feb 2, 2012, at 12:30 PM, Mikel Maron
wrote:</div>
<br class="yiv1574418701Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; ">
<div><span>They're talking about me. Don't
get too excited. I'll probably have a
lot more to say soon. Would love to hear
some feedback ...</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div>* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel
s:mikelmaron<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; ">
<div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: times, serif; ">
<div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Iván Sánchez Ortega <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ivan@sanchezortega.es" target="_blank" href="mailto:ivan@sanchezortega.es">ivan@sanchezortega.es</a>><br>
<b><span style="
font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:hot@openstreetmap.org">hot@openstreetmap.org</a>
<br>
<b><span style="
font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Thursday, February 2, 2012 1:37
PM<br>
<b><span style="
font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[HOT] Meeting with WB about
MapMaker?<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
<br>
A news item got my attention a few
minutes ago:<br>
<br>
http://techpresident.com/news/21709/google-world-bank-deal-ask-too-much-crowd<br>
<br>
Quote:<br>
<br>
«Aleem Walji, practice manager of
the World Bank's innovation
practice, said <br>
Thursday that he would be sitting
down with people from [...] the
open-source <br>
mapping group OpenStreetMap to
discuss a partnership between the
bank and <br>
Google that would see the search
giant's Google Map Maker tool put to
use in <br>
developing countries.»<br>
<br>
<br>
I'm wondering if they refer to
someone from the OSM Foundation, or
someone <br>
from HOT. I'd love to see some
feedback regarding this issue over
this <br>
mailing list.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
-- <br>
Iván Sánchez Ortega <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ivan@sanchezortega.es" target="_blank" href="mailto:ivan@sanchezortega.es">ivan@sanchezortega.es</a>>
<<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ivan@geonerd.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:ivan@geonerd.org">ivan@geonerd.org</a>><br>
<br>
Here I come when I better go<br>
I say yes when I ought to say no<br>
-- Dragonnette, I come
around<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br>
<pre class="yiv1574418701moz-signature">--
gpg 0x5939EAE2
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