<div dir="ltr">Dear Michael, all,<div><br></div><div>Typing this quickly as the day is going badly for me...</div><div><br></div><div>It's my opinion that the creation of HOT mailing lists require more community input than was shown in this instance; whilst I know that we need to be doing more to work in more languages than English, I am not convinced that the creation of new HOT mailing lists is the way forward.</div>
<div><br></div><div><i><font face="arial, sans-serif">"</font><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">In line with that, our osmf-* lists are only generated after broader discussion and may involve board sanction. Should HOT reflect that distinction in some way?"</span></i></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Yes. HOT is a legally defined membership organisation, like the OSMF, and is not comparable with many of the other mailing lists. Dev lists, for example, cater for people with shared interests; regional mailing lists cater for people in the same place: The HOT list is different because it serves as the primary communication channel for our organisation and its members.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">I think following the OSMF procedures is an excellent idea.</span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><div><i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">So, having a discussion over about some control over who and how folks can use the word "HOT" or "Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team" is worth having?"</span></i></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Certainly. I'm not sure how the Communications Working Group is getting on, but they'd seem like a perfect team to be doing this. Otherwise, we have a Board (to vote on things, please), or an Executive Director. Others may well disagree with me, but I think it's important to use our "brand" (for want of a better description) as best we can. </font></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><i><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">"</span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">OSM lists on </span><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo" target="_blank" style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo</a><b style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </b><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">are easy. HOT lists have an extra layer in that they are effectively being hosted by a sister organisation that HOT has no control over. Should HOT have any ground rules that I can be guided by?"</span></i></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Perhaps HOT should be maintaining our own lists? Otherwise I'd defer again to the Communications WG as above.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">Thanks, </span><font face="arial, sans-serif">Joseph</font></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></div><div><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 11 July 2014 12:01, Michael Collinson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mike@ayeltd.biz" target="_blank">mike@ayeltd.biz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>As mentioned, I create the OSM lists,
so I hope these neutral observations help the discussion:<br>
<br>
Yes, indeed the OSM list system works in as loose and
free-wheeling manner as possible along the support-but-not-control
mission of the OSMF. So unless I can think of a really strong
reason, I just go ahead and create whatever list is requested
provided that it is in some way OSM-related and that it is free
for anyone to join and participate subject to etiquette
guidelines. I may nudge and suggest a bit, for example a better
name or pointing out a potential overlap with another list, but
that is all. To my recollection, I've only sought board guidance
once. For OSM Just Do It ethos, it works well.<br>
<br>
However, <span>I can see a number of reasons why a little time
for HOT to discuss and have a good collective strategy </span>is
a good thing:<br>
<br>
1) We (OpenStreetMap) do draw a firm distinction between OSM and
OSMF, i.e. a broad community with fuzzy membership and a, well,
bureaucratic organisation with with specific finite membership. In
line with that, our osmf-* lists are only generated after broader
discussion and may involve board sanction. Should HOT reflect
that distinction in some way?<br>
<br>
2) When OpenStreetMap started, we did not explicitly consider
branding. So it is not always clear what "OpenStreetMap" refers
to. That can be a good thing, someone starts a weird project, it
turns out to be useful and is absorbed into the OSM universe. But
it can be a bad thing if someone represents themselves to
governmental or commercial organisations in a way that might be
damaging to the overall project. So, having a discussion over
about some control over who and how folks can use the word "HOT"
or "Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team" is worth having?<br>
<br>
3) OSM lists on <span></span><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo</a><b>
</b>are easy. HOT lists have an extra layer in that they are
effectively being hosted by a sister organisation that HOT has no
control over. Should HOT have any ground rules that I can be
guided by?<br>
<br>
<br>
Mike<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/07/2014 15:26, Severin Menard wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Heather,<br>
<br>
</div>
I am a bit surprised by your reaction, it seems you do not
know well how the OSM lists work. Any group can ask OSMF
(Mike Collinson is in charge of this) to create one, about a
specific topic and/or a specific location. Here is the whole
list of OSM talk lists: <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/</a>
for you to figure out.<br>
<br>
</div>
As you can see, there are very specific lists like eg
Talk-gb-oxoncotswolds for Oxford, Oxfordshire and the
Cotswolds in GB or Talk-it-trentino for the Trentino in Italy.
These lists have been created by locals or people specifically
interested in these regions; creating it does not require the
permission of an "upper list" that would be the country one or
the general talk list (without suffix). Regarding your
background, you could eg create an OSM-Ushahidi list to
discuss about the interactions between OSM and Ushahidi (and
this would not be a bad idea at all), knowing that many people
would join.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Are you really suggesting setting a public, open OSM list
allowing a potential +200 million people to raise their voices
on humanitarian and development topics should have been
decided by a board or people outside them? Or that we should
make a general survey (in English) to state if Spanish,
French, Portuguese or Swahili speakers will be allowed or not
to have a list in their language? This does not fit with OSM.
This hot list in French is actually something that is in the
minds and wished for years.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Otherwise I do take care about communicating about this
when it starts, this is the aim of my message, so that this
larger (I mean larger because many could not participate
before in hot discussions and now will join) community (and
not separated communities) can collaborate efficiently. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Hope these points are more clear for you.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sincerely,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Severin<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM,
Heather Leson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:heather.leson@hotosm.org" target="_blank">heather.leson@hotosm.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">Sev, it would have been great to talk in person
before setting up a separate HOT list and community
process. </p>
<p dir="ltr">For example, this was already a topic for the
upcoming Board meeting and definitely something we want to
do right by really consulting with the HOT community.</p>
<p dir="ltr">While I appreciate your initiative,
collaboration and community means communicating.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I'll be following up on this in the coming
month.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Thank you</p>
<p dir="ltr">Heather </p>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Jul 10, 2014 7:33 AM, "Severin
Menard" <<a href="mailto:severin.menard@gmail.com" target="_blank">severin.menard@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is a <a href="http://openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">openstreetmap.org</a>
hot list now for French speaking people
who do not have enough English to
participate to the hot (English) list,
and they are numerous not only in France
(I think well-known to be one of the
worst English speaking countries :) but
also in Africa and in the Caribbeans.
This would allow people from various OSM
communities especially in developing
countries, to raise their voices and
interact more (or quicker, because
basically writing in foreign language
takes more time) with the HOT/OSM
community regarding the humanitarian and
development topics. So far, when we
wanted to interact on these topics in
French, we had to make emails with a
long list of talk-country lists, which
is not really appropriate as it
duplicates the same messages in various
talk lists. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>This already exists for the dev
lists: dev is in English by default, and
there is a French and an Italian one. As
I guess (I did not check) they do, there
will be interactions between the lists
when it seems useful after a brainstorm,
around an action, a methodology or a new
"discovery"; the people that can
interact in the two languages can bridge
the lists. If someone has experience on
this, please tell. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
I would suggest the Spanish native
speakers from the HOT community to create
also a list as the community of native
Spanish speakers in the world is twice
more numerous than French. It would help
during crisis like the ones in Bolivia or
in Chile last year. <br>
<br>
</div>
For the suffix, a quick survey showed that a
huge majority preferred hot-francophone
rather than hot-fr or hot-francais,
basically because it states clearly it is
about the language and not the country of
origin, and this does count, especially for
the people from former French colonies. <br>
<br>
</div>
For those interested, you can subscribe here:
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot-francophone" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot-francophone</a><br>
<br>
</div>
I translated the description from English, just
added a bit at the end because the English text
only talks about crisis response, and does not
mention development, what should be rectified.
The translation in English would be: "Apart from
crisis response, the list helps HOT to prepare
resources and improve its response, but also to
discuss and set an OSM map for development. For
this as well, stakeholders and population can
send messages on the list (questions, opinions,
requests, discussions...)".<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
Sincerely,<br>
<br>
Severin<br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
HOT mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">HOT@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
HOT mailing list
<a href="mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">HOT@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
HOT mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org">HOT@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>