<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div class="" style=""><span class="" style="">> </span><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">Yes, and I don't actually believe we have " a situation" outside of you desperately wanting to turn this in to one.</span></div><div class="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12.727272033691406px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div class="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:
12.727272033691406px; font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">Not really interested in creating problems where there are none. I guess if another Board member thinks this is a situation, they can add it to your next agenda. </span></div><div class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""> </div><div class="" style="">> <span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">Given that we are not privy to the communication prior to the blocks, until I hear or see something different, I have to assume that the </span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> DWG has not suddenly gone rogue and is telling us what really happened. You seem to be assuming without any obvious reason that the </span></div><div class="" style=""><span style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;" class="">> opposite is the case.</span></div><div class="" style=""><br></div><div class="" style="">Perhaps that's the problem here. Maybe we should be privy to it.</div><div class="" style=""><br></div><div class="" style="">-Mikel</div><div class="" style=""><br></div><div class="" style="">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron</div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:
10pt;" class=""> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> <div dir="ltr" class="" style=""> <font size="2" face="Arial" class="" style=""> On Friday, June 6, 2014 2:54 PM, Simon Poole <simon@osmfoundation.org> wrote:<br class="" style=""> </font> </div> <blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;" class=""> <br class="" style=""><br class="" style=""> <div class="" style=""><div id="yiv6934051429" class="" style=""><div class="" style="">
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
Am 06.06.2014 20:40, schrieb Mikel Maron:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;" class="">
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="">> </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">As said above, I don't think
policing individual employees of a 3rd party (including
sending them individual messages etc) is a reasonable </span></div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">> use of our limited
resources, particularly when they are non-responsive and
would suggest simply blocking the whole organisation going </span></div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:12.727272033691406px;font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">> forward.</span></div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<div class="" style="">Nor is it a reasonable action of the
Chair of the OSM Foundation to suggest "blocking" MapBox. I'm
not defending MapBox or the import, but seriously, you are
Chair of our Board and think that's ok communication from your
position? And that's your main response to the situation?</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yes, and I don't actually believe we have " a situation" outside of
you desperately wanting to turn this in to one.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;" class="">
<div class="" style="">> <span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;"> "</span><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">not giving a changeset
comment, or not giving enough information in a note "</span></div>
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;"><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">Simon,
read the blocks in question. These were only the reasons
given. Perhaps what we ultimately have here is simply poor
communication from the DWG. And now the Chair of the OSM
Foundation.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Given that we are not privy to the communication prior to the
blocks, until I hear or see something different, I have to assume
that the DWG has not suddenly gone rogue and is telling us what
really happened. You seem to be assuming without any obvious reason
that the opposite is the case.<div class="" id="yiv6934051429yqtfd88695" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Simon<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="">
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;" class="">
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;"><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">-Mikel</span></div>
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;"><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel
s:mikelmaron</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="display:block;">
<div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div class="" dir="ltr" style=""> <font class="" style="" face="Arial" size="2"> On Friday, June 6, 2014 2:33
PM, Simon Poole <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" ymailto="mailto:simon@osmfoundation.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:simon@osmfoundation.org" style=""><simon@osmfoundation.org></a> wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</font> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;"> <br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div class="" id="yiv6934051429" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
While I don't find it acceptable in the first
place that we are policing individual employees
of a third party instead of the employer taking
the responsibility and carrying the consequences
of misbehaviour, I can see how we got in the
situation. <br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
I would suggest that the DWG produce a short
report on what has taken place so that we get a
more complete picture, in particular given that
we do not have any background in the case of
sorein.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
That said, I do not see an issue with the events
wrt the NYC import as they unfold on github,
given that the mappers in question were not
blocked for " not giving a changeset comment, or
not giving enough information in a note ", but
for not responding to the DWG, but maybe the
report can shed some more light on that. <br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
As said above, I don't think policing individual
employees of a 3rd party (including sending them
individual messages etc) is a reasonable use of
our limited resources, particularly when they
are non-responsive and would suggest simply
blocking the whole organisation going forward.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Simon<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Am 06.06.2014 18:43, schrieb 'Mikel Maron' via
board-with-guests:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" id="yiv6934051429yqt06341" style="">
<blockquote class="" type="cite" style="">
<div class="" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style=""><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">>
The only thing that I've found that
they do </span><span class="" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:12.727272033691406px;">respond
to consistently is being blocked by
the DWG.</span><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<div class="" style="">That is disturbing to
hear.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">User blocks are a
tool of last resort, when someone is doing
serious harm to OSM. Like deleting objects
randomly.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">That just doesn't
compare to situations like not giving a
changeset comment, or not giving enough
information in a note. Minor issues. These
are not conventions to be enforced by
blocking.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" target="_blank" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/465" style="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/465</a><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" target="_blank" href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/471" style="font-size:10pt;">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/471</a></div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.63636302947998px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">The
DWG has a great responsibility to OSM, to
be appropriate and measured arbitrators of
data issues. The great deal of the work
done by the DWG is beneficial, and I
appreciate it. I was among the group that
originally convened the DWG, and happy
that we have this function with the OSM
community. However, in some recent
circumstances, the DWG is taking its
responsibility much further than our
collective and official expectation, and
is simply abusing its authority in cases
of clear of conflict of interest. And we
lack accountability of when the DWG goes
too far.</div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.63636302947998px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.63636302947998px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">So,
I'm calling on the Board to take up the
issue of setting clear limits on the the
activities of the DWG. </div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.63636302947998px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13.63636302947998px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Mikel</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">* Mikel Maron
* +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="display:block;">
<div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">
<div class="" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div class="" dir="ltr" style=""> <font class="" style="" face="Arial" size="2"> On Friday, June 6, 2014
12:31 PM, Alex Barth <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" ymailto="mailto:alex@mapbox.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:alex@mapbox.com" style=""><alex@mapbox.com></a>
wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</font> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="border-left:2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px;">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div class="" id="yiv6934051429" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div class="" dir="ltr" style="">
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
<div class="" style="">On
Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 6:29
AM, Serge Wroclawski <span class="" dir="ltr" style=""><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" ymailto="mailto:emacsen@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:emacsen@gmail.com" style="">emacsen@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="" style="">On
Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at
8:55 PM, Alex Barth
<<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" ymailto="mailto:alex@mapbox.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:alex@mapbox.com" style="">alex@mapbox.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
The issue of
responsiveness is
straightforward. When
a community<br clear="none" class="" style="">
member finds a problem
with how something is
mapped and we go
through<br clear="none" class="" style="">
the speicifc steps
outlined in the import
process, and the
individual<br clear="none" class="" style="">
community members
creating the problem
are notified, I think
there's a<br clear="none" class="" style="">
reasonable expectation
that they'll stop.
Maybe they'd respond
to OSM<br clear="none" class="" style="">
messages, or respond
to notes that they
created, or respond to
github.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
My experience is
consistently that with
your mapper staff that
they<br clear="none" class="" style="">
simply don't respond
to any of these. The
only thing they've
responded<br clear="none" class="" style="">
to is DWG intervention
(ie blocks).<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">As
stated earlier.
Working on getting
better responsiveness
in place. I think
we've made good first
steps. Let me know any
time you run into
specific issues.</div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
That's a really huge
hammer to have to
bring down, but the
alternative<br clear="none" class="" style="">
is that there's bad
data in OSM.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
The second issue is
cleanup, which ties
very much into the
first one.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
There would be no big
problem with waiting
days and needing to
contact<br clear="none" class="" style="">
three or four people
before getting a
response, if the data
didn't<br clear="none" class="" style="">
stay bad. But instead,
we see data that was
put in badly and has<br clear="none" class="" style="">
stayed bad. It's
really a mess, which
could have been fixed
if the<br clear="none" class="" style="">
attitude had just been
to go a bit slower and
when someone brings up<br clear="none" class="" style="">
an issue, to take it
seriously and not
ignore it until days
later<br clear="none" class="" style="">
(importing with the
problem in the
meantime).<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">The
data we're importing
in NYC is very very
good. Sure, it's not
100 % without
problems, no data is,
but it is absolutely
_not_ "a mess". We
have stopped and
reviewed and fixed the
import and imported
data time and again -
often on your request.
We just 100 % don't
agree on the overall
assessment here and
I'm not sure how you
can get to the
perspective you're
sharing above. If
there are specific
problems, please flag
them on the tracker <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" target="_blank" href="http://github.com/osmlab/nycbuildings" style="">github.com/osmlab/nycbuildings</a>
and we'll review. </div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Consider this... I
still haven't seen an
affirmative statement
that<br clear="none" class="" style="">
you're going to use
paid mappers, yet the
subtext is that this
is what<br clear="none" class="" style="">
will happen. If you're
going to use paid
remote mappers, just
say so.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Just say "This is our
plan." </blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">The
DC import plan is not
saying anything about
the Mapbox team
mapping on it because
that's right now not
the plan. I'd love to
see the DC government
lift this themselves -
this would be an
amazing story. I'd be
happy to help though
if needed.<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
</div>
In regards to NYC, I've
said very clearly at the
first community import
session in NYC that our
team will be mapping too.
You've confirmed hearing
this to me earlier I hope
you still remember but you
also said that it wasn't
clear to you to what
extent we'd engage. It's
my regret that I didn't
spell out clearer what
this meant to me. </div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Look,
I want to build over time
an excellent data team
helping to make
OpenStreetMap the best map
in the world. I want them
to be hands on with
improving data in
OpenStreetMap in the most
responsible way possible.
For initiating an import
like the one in NYC I
would love also the next
time not only to work with
community closely to make
sure it's done right and
responsibly, but also have
community directly help
hands on do the import. At
the same time, I also need
to be able to say it's
done in a certain time
(NYC stands to take about
9 months total, that's
longer than I thought, but
fine) and I need to be
able to guarantee that
it's being finished at
some point. I don't ever
want to be associated with
a half-imported dataset.
So if Mapbox takes the
initiative on an import,
we will always have to be
ready to see it through
ourselves rather than let
it peter out. Again,
talking about the grunt
work here. I am open for
feedback from A-Z
throughout the process and
I've also learned that
engaging community means
doing things at a certain
pace - for instance you
remember that the initial
time schedule for the NYC
import was way too
ambitious.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Again,
to be very clear, the DC
proposal comes from the DC
government and I'm right
now not thinking that this
is an import where Mapbox
needs to take the ultimate
responsibility to see it
through, and again, I'm
more than happy to see
whether we can help David
Jackson and team if
needed.</div>
<div class="" id="yiv6934051429yqtfd40606" style="">
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Alex</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<div class="" id="yiv6934051429yqtfd63909" style="">_______________________________________________<br clear="none" class="" style="">
Imports mailing list<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" ymailto="mailto:Imports@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Imports@openstreetmap.org" style="">Imports@openstreetmap.org</a><br clear="none" class="" style="">
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="" target="_blank" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports" style="">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports</a><br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
<br clear="none" class="" style="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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