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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
While I don't find it acceptable in the first place that we are
policing individual employees of a third party instead of the
employer taking the responsibility and carrying the consequences
of misbehaviour, I can see how we got in the situation. <br>
<br>
I would suggest that the DWG produce a short report on what has
taken place so that we get a more complete picture, in particular
given that we do not have any background in the case of sorein.<br>
<br>
That said, I do not see an issue with the events wrt the NYC
import as they unfold on github, given that the mappers in
question were not blocked for " not giving a changeset comment, or
not giving enough information in a note ", but for not responding
to the DWG, but maybe the report can shed some more light on that.
<br>
<br>
As said above, I don't think policing individual employees of a
3rd party (including sending them individual messages etc) is a
reasonable use of our limited resources, particularly when they
are non-responsive and would suggest simply blocking the whole
organisation going forward.<br>
<br>
Simon<br>
<br>
Am 06.06.2014 18:43, schrieb 'Mikel Maron' via board-with-guests:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1402073036.2540.YahooMailNeo@web161701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff;
font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div class="" style=""><span class="" style=""><span
style="font-family: 'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI',
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size:
12.727272033691406px;" class="">> The only thing that
I've found that they do </span><span style="font-family:
'Helvetica Neue', 'Segoe UI', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida
Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12.727272033691406px;"
class="">respond to consistently is being blocked by the
DWG.</span><br style="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<div class="" style="">That is disturbing to hear.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">User blocks are a tool of last resort,
when someone is doing serious harm to OSM. Like deleting
objects randomly.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">That just doesn't compare to situations
like not giving a changeset comment, or not giving enough
information in a note. Minor issues. These are not conventions
to be enforced by blocking.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br>
</div>
<div class="" style=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/465" class=""
style="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/465</a><br
class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/471"
style="font-size: 10pt;" class="">http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/471</a></div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style="">
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.63636302947998px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">The DWG has a great
responsibility to OSM, to be appropriate and
measured arbitrators of data issues. The great deal of the
work done by the DWG is beneficial, and I appreciate it. I was
among the group that originally convened the DWG, and happy
that we have this function with the OSM community. However, in
some recent circumstances, the DWG is taking its
responsibility much further than our collective and official
expectation, and is simply abusing its authority in cases of
clear of conflict of interest. And we lack accountability of
when the DWG goes too far.</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.63636302947998px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.63636302947998px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">So, I'm calling on
the Board to take up the issue of setting clear limits on the
the activities of the DWG. </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.63636302947998px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br>
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13.63636302947998px;
font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica,
Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; background-color:
transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">Mikel</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style="">
</div>
<div class="" style="">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel
s:mikelmaron</div>
<div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:
10pt;" class="">
<div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size:
12pt;" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="" style=""> <font class="" style=""
face="Arial" size="2"> On Friday, June 6, 2014 12:31
PM, Alex Barth <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:alex@mapbox.com"><alex@mapbox.com></a> wrote:<br
class="" style="">
</font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left:
5px;" class=""> <br class="" style="">
<br class="" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div id="yiv2833556718" class="" style="">
<div class="" style="">
<div dir="ltr" class="" style="">
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
<div class="" style="">On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at
6:29 AM, Serge Wroclawski <span dir="ltr"
class="" style=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:emacsen@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:emacsen@gmail.com" class=""
style="">emacsen@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="" style="" clear="none">
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class="" style="">On Thu, Jun 5, 2014
at 8:55 PM, Alex Barth <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" rel="nofollow"
shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:alex@mapbox.com"
target="_blank"
href="mailto:alex@mapbox.com" class=""
style="">alex@mapbox.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="" style="" clear="none">
</div>
The issue of responsiveness is
straightforward. When a community<br
class="" style="" clear="none">
member finds a problem with how something
is mapped and we go through<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
the speicifc steps outlined in the import
process, and the individual<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
community members creating the problem are
notified, I think there's a<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
reasonable expectation that they'll stop.
Maybe they'd respond to OSM<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
messages, or respond to notes that they
created, or respond to github.<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
My experience is consistently that with
your mapper staff that they<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
simply don't respond to any of these. The
only thing they've responded<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
to is DWG intervention (ie blocks).<br
class="" style="" clear="none">
</blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">As stated earlier.
Working on getting better responsiveness
in place. I think we've made good first
steps. Let me know any time you run into
specific issues.</div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<br class="" style="" clear="none">
That's a really huge hammer to have to
bring down, but the alternative<br
class="" style="" clear="none">
is that there's bad data in OSM.<br
class="" style="" clear="none">
<br class="" style="" clear="none">
The second issue is cleanup, which ties
very much into the first one.<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
There would be no big problem with waiting
days and needing to contact<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
three or four people before getting a
response, if the data didn't<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
stay bad. But instead, we see data that
was put in badly and has<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
stayed bad. It's really a mess, which
could have been fixed if the<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
attitude had just been to go a bit slower
and when someone brings up<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
an issue, to take it seriously and not
ignore it until days later<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
(importing with the problem in the
meantime).<br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">The data we're
importing in NYC is very very good. Sure,
it's not 100 % without problems, no data
is, but it is absolutely _not_ "a mess".
We have stopped and reviewed and fixed the
import and imported data time and again -
often on your request. We just 100 % don't
agree on the overall assessment here and
I'm not sure how you can get to the
perspective you're sharing above. If there
are specific problems, please flag them on
the tracker <a moz-do-not-send="true"
rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
target="_blank"
href="http://github.com/osmlab/nycbuildings"
class="" style="">github.com/osmlab/nycbuildings</a>
and we'll review. </div>
<div class="" style=""> </div>
<blockquote class="" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex;">
Consider this... I still haven't seen an
affirmative statement that<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
you're going to use paid mappers, yet the
subtext is that this is what<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
will happen. If you're going to use paid
remote mappers, just say so.<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
Just say "This is our plan." </blockquote>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">The DC import plan is
not saying anything about the Mapbox team
mapping on it because that's right now not
the plan. I'd love to see the DC
government lift this themselves - this
would be an amazing story. I'd be happy to
help though if needed.<br class=""
style="" clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
</div>
In regards to NYC, I've said very clearly at
the first community import session in NYC that
our team will be mapping too. You've confirmed
hearing this to me earlier I hope you still
remember but you also said that it wasn't
clear to you to what extent we'd engage. It's
my regret that I didn't spell out clearer what
this meant to me. </div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Look, I want to build
over time an excellent data team helping to
make OpenStreetMap the best map in the world.
I want them to be hands on with improving data
in OpenStreetMap in the most responsible way
possible. For initiating an import like the
one in NYC I would love also the next time not
only to work with community closely to make
sure it's done right and responsibly, but also
have community directly help hands on do the
import. At the same time, I also need to be
able to say it's done in a certain time (NYC
stands to take about 9 months total, that's
longer than I thought, but fine) and I need to
be able to guarantee that it's being finished
at some point. I don't ever want to be
associated with a half-imported dataset. So if
Mapbox takes the initiative on an import, we
will always have to be ready to see it through
ourselves rather than let it peter out. Again,
talking about the grunt work here. I am open
for feedback from A-Z throughout the process
and I've also learned that engaging community
means doing things at a certain pace - for
instance you remember that the initial time
schedule for the NYC import was way too
ambitious.</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Again, to be very clear,
the DC proposal comes from the DC government
and I'm right now not thinking that this is an
import where Mapbox needs to take the ultimate
responsibility to see it through, and again,
I'm more than happy to see whether we can help
David Jackson and team if needed.</div>
<div class="" id="yiv2833556718yqtfd40606"
style="">
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style="">Alex</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
<div class="" style=""><br class="" style=""
clear="none">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="" style="">
<div class="" id="yqtfd63909" style="">_______________________________________________<br
class="" style="" clear="none">
Imports mailing list<br class="" style=""
clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:Imports@openstreetmap.org"
href="mailto:Imports@openstreetmap.org" class=""
style="">Imports@openstreetmap.org</a><br class=""
style="" clear="none">
<a moz-do-not-send="true" shape="rect"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports"
target="_blank" class="" style="">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/imports</a><br
class="" style="" clear="none">
</div>
<br class="" style="">
<br class="" style="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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