<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252">
<meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
<style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:"Segoe UI";
panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style>
</head>
<body lang="EN-NZ" link="blue" vlink="#954F72" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal">> is glacier area data incorrect?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Yes I think that’s part of the issue. The crevasse data agrees with the aerial imagery from the USGS, whereas the glaciers in OSM seem to be less precise or match a different snow line.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> is remaining creevace data of the same low quality? Just not obviously detectable?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> If this was missed - what else was not properly reviewed?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">As above, it seems like the crevasses are fine, and the glacier outlines are slightly different to the lastest aerial imagery (which is expected to a certain degree).</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Here’s a screenshot from iD of the way you mentioned earlier (in green) and the glacier outline (blue)</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/16009897/138617640-473840ad-c43d-4ba7-8796-b8a23af02dea.png">https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/16009897/138617640-473840ad-c43d-4ba7-8796-b8a23af02dea.png</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> So OSM would be reduced to mirroring some official dataset?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">No, it will only flag cases that haven’t been edited by anyone since they were imported (or last updated).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This system will never undo anyone’s hard work. It just makes sure that we fix imported data which is now out-of-date and was never touched by anyone else.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Primary problems caused by low quality imports range from [...]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the detailed explanation. This is definitely an issue in OSM, although I don’t think these crevasses pose a significant issue:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you’ve surveyed an area, it shouldn’t be too difficult to select and delete the small amount of crevasses in that area if you want to re-draw them.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bear in mind that there are (at most) ~5 ways per 100m^2. Compared to a town with a house every 10 metres, the data is actually quiet spare.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Are there any other ways we can improve imports to make it less intimidating for new contributors to edit the area?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I know that avoiding confusing and useless tags like TIGER:*, LINZ:*, etc. is one important point.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> I am asking about announcement on imports mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for pointing that out. I will send a seperate email to this mailing list to formally introduce the decade-old import.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0cm"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:imports@openstreetmap.org">Mateusz Konieczny via Imports</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Monday, 25 October 2021 06:52<br>
<b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:imports@openstreetmap.org">imports@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Imports] Hydrographic data import from LINZ</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Oct 24, 2021, 03:45 by K.y.l.e@outlook.co.nz:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
> How crevasses can be in rock outside glacier?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
I think the extent of the glaciers from the ADD import don’t quite match the glaciers that LINZ has surveyed.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
There seem to be only a few cases like this, right at the edge of the glacier, we can delete these if you like.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The question is <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- is glacier area data incorrect?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- is remaining creevace data of the same low quality? Just not obviously detectable?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If this was missed - what else was not properly reviewed?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
> How you plan to update this data?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
Using the same system as the ongoing address update, you can try it yourself from
<a href="https://osm-nz.github.io/RapiD" target="_blank">https://osm-nz.github.io/RapiD</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
It can handle the complex aspects like moving, editing, and deleting data.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So OSM would be reduced to mirroring some official dataset? <o:p>
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With the most glaring errors hidden but remaining data hidden?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.75pt">> Primary effect is to make this area uneditable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
Not sure what you mean by this. This area is just as editable as any other part of the world, bearing in mind the lack of good quality aerial imagery.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Primary problems caused by low quality imports range from<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- many mappers especially new are unaware that low quality data mismatching reality,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">especially imported data, can be freely deleted<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- even if they aware of this - it is often very tedious to do this, especially for new people<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- in general people are often far more motivated by mapping something new<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">over repairing garbage<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Obviously all of that applies only to bad imported data, imports of data that is as
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">good as people would map are extremely helpful.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I was editing in some places where for example people imported massive
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">forest multipolygons (thousands of elements) or import of the same features was done<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">multiple times or import utterly mismatched reality or someone imported data that<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">actually no longer existed.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It was confusing and miserable experience and for someone new it would be
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">likely enough to completely discourage them from contributing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I also encountered many requests, even from long term mappers to<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">help with areas especially affected by imports that made editing nearly impossible<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">in a given area.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If you are unaware that bad import can heavily damage editability and<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">you are not taking this into account then I would strongly encourage<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">to avoid doing this Hydrographic data import from LINZ.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #93A3B8 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
> Also, I want to repeat request for linking specific posting on mailing list that announced plan to import this features.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
> Changesets that mass added this features miss links to relevant import documentation.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
I think I answered all this in our other conversation, in addition, here is the link to talk-nz which I didn’t include
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/2021/thread.html" target="_blank">
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/2021/thread.html</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.75pt">
All changesets made after 6/10/21 have source=<a href="https://wiki.osm.org/LINZ" target="_blank">https://wiki.osm.org/LINZ</a>, in addition to attribution=<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#LINZ" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Segoe UI",sans-serif;color:#2244DD">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#LINZ</span></a>
which they always had. I hope this addresses that problem.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I am asking about announcement on imports mailing list. It is obligatory and gives<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">people to stop harmful imports. And as far as I know imports that failed this requirement<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">can be freely reverted.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(I understand that small local and uncontroversial imports are often not doing this,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and in such case such reverts would be unhelpful, but it is not one of such cases)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>