[OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference 72267)

Wed Oct 14 00:45:56 BST 2009

Phillip,

That's where I was coming from and specifically why I quoted the examples I
did. I certainly think its worth an appeal (but perhaps discussion with them
first) in line with what you say. I don't really know why the 1:25 first
services was so hit and miss with a printed (c). very few have them (mostly
a few in the 1950's). All the early editions just have the format as per my
examples but without the revision.

Incidentally the vast majority of these maps only have minor changes or
minor corrections. Just a handful have major changes.

Happy for you to lead the way here.

Cheers

Andy

>-----Original Message-----
>From: legal-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
>bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Barnett, Phillip
>Sent: 13 October 2009 6:00 PM
>To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
>Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference
>72267)
>
>Andy,
>
>Crown copyright maps, and books, are reprinted all the time. Copyright
>dates stay the same, generally.
>The crux point is what triggers a new copyright date.
>
>Guidance notes from the OPSI -
>"A new edition of a published work which contains substantial revisions
>would normally qualify as a new copyright work. For example, if a
>department first published a document in 1997 and subsequently revised and
>reissued it in 2004, the notice in the revised version would indicate the
>copyright date of 2004, although it would be customary - and helpful - to
>state that an earlier version had been issued in 1997. A reprint or new
>impression without any substantial changes to the text would not constitute
>a new copyright work."
>
>The last sentence is the important one - of the examples that you sent to
>them below, all explicitly claim 'minor' changes to the work, and so the
>OPSI guidelines indicate that no copyright date change would be the case,
>which is presumably why the maps were never printed with a revised
>copyright date in the first place.
>
>'Reprinted with minor corrections 1960'
>'Reprinted with minor changes 1963.'
>'Reprinted with the addition of new major roads 1967.' - this one is
>possibly debateable as it contains the word 'major'  - substitute 'A roads'
>for 'major roads' and I contend it qualifies as minor changes.
>
>So the situation should be -
>A map published with a (c) date means the (c) date applies and if no (c)
>date printed then the FIRST publication date on the sheet applies.
>And we have plenty of examples collected of where the revision date is
>later than the explicitly printed copyright date, which rather proves my
>point. (eg my copy of SO13, Talgarth, (c) 1951, major road revisions 1976)
>
>Now, who's going to take this up with Tony Gray? (I'm happy to argue the
>point, if you don't mind my quoting your correspondence. Otherwise I'll
>just point him to the OPSI guidance)
>
>Cheers
>Phillip
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: legal-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
>bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
>Sent: 13 October 2009 15:59
>To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
>Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference
>72267)
>
>I'm comfortable that the OS has spoken. A map published with a (c) date
>means the (c) date applies and if no (c) date printed then the last
>publication date on the sheet applies.
>
>At least we have a basis to move on though I think we could still appeal
>this latest FOIA response.
>
>Cheers
>
>Andy
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: legal-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
>>bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Barnett, Phillip
>>Sent: 13 October 2009 3:47 PM
>>To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
>>Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference
>>72267)
>>
>>Doesn't this appear to contradict the advice given to Tim SC here?
>>
>>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:TimSC/CopyrightFOI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>PHILLIP BARNETT
>>SERVER MANAGER
>>
>>200 GRAY'S INN ROAD
>>LONDON
>>WC1X 8XZ
>>UNITED KINGDOM
>>T +44 (0)20 7430 4474
>>F
>>E PHILLIP.BARNETT at ITN.CO.UK
>>http://WWW.ITN.CO.UK
>>P  Please consider the environment. Do you really need to print this
>email?
>>-----Original Message-----
>>
>>From: legal-talk-bounces at openstreetmap.org [mailto:legal-talk-
>>bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
>>Sent: 13 October 2009 15:33
>>To: 'Licensing and other legal discussions.'
>>Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference 72267)
>>
>>As I suspected the OS has taken a hard line with respect to copyright and
>>publication date.
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>Andy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Customer Services [mailto:CustomerServices at ordnancesurvey.co.uk]
>>Sent: 13 October 2009 2:10 PM
>>To: blackadderajr at googlemail.com
>>Subject: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference 72267)
>>
>>
>>
>>Dear Mr Robinson
>>
>>
>>
>>Ordnance Survey reference: 72267
>>
>>
>>
>>Thank you for your email dated 30 September 2009 requesting: seeking
>>clarification regarding Crown Copyright status for those Ordnance Survey
>>map
>>sheets which do not carry a specific Crown Copyright (c) date.  Please
>>provide confirmation of the date when, for the following hard copy printed
>>map sheet examples, Crown Copyright expired or will expire.
>>
>>
>>
>>Example 1:  1:25,000 First Series. Sheet SU93. Print edition C//. Made and
>>published by the Director General of the Ordnance Survey, Chessington,
>>Surrey, 1948.  Reprinted with minor corrections 1960.
>>
>>
>>
>>Example 2:  1:25,000 First Series. Sheet NY21. Print edition C//. Made and
>>published by the Director General of the Ordnance Survey, Chessington,
>>Surrey, 1956.  Reprinted with minor changes 1963.
>>
>>
>>
>>Example 3:  1:25,000 First Series. Sheet SO98. Print edition B///*. Made
>>and
>>published by the Director General of the Ordnance Survey, Chessington,
>>Surrey, 1953.  Reprinted with the addition of new major roads 1967.
>>
>>
>>
>>We are pleased to provide you with the following information with regard
>to
>>your request.
>>
>>
>>
>>Crown copyright is retained for 50 years from the end of the year in which
>>the last date of publication on, in this instance, an Ordnance Survey map
>>is
>>stated.  In the examples provided this means for example 1, from 31
>>December
>>1960 until the end of 2010; example 2 from 31 December 1963 until the end
>>of
>>2013; and example 3 from 31 December 1967 until the end of 2017.
>>
>>
>>
>>Please note that your enquiry has been processed to Freedom of Information
>>guidelines, though technically this request does not qualify under the
>FOIA
>>as this is not information which is held.  As this is the case, we have
>>determined that in all the circumstances of this case the Public interest
>>consideration (section 17 FOIA) is not applicable in this instance.
>>
>>
>>
>>If you are unhappy with our response, you may raise an appeal to our
>>Appeals
>>Officer at:
>>
>>Complaints Team
>>
>>Customer Service Centre
>>
>>Ordnance Survey
>>
>>Romsey Road
>>
>>SOUTHAMPTON
>>
>>SO16 4GU
>>
>>Please include the reference number above. The Appeals Officer will ensure
>>that the process has been followed correctly, questioning any decisions
>>taken regarding the original response and recommending disclosure of
>>additional information if appropriate.
>>
>>Thank you for your enquiry.
>>
>>Yours sincerely
>>
>>
>>
>>Tony Gray
>>
>>Information Access Manager
>>
>>(Freedom of Information)
>>
>>Ordnance Survey
>>
>>C454, Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, United Kingdom, SO16 4GU
>>Phone: +44 (0)8456 05 05 05 Fax: +44 (0) 23 8079 2615
>>www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk customerservices at ordnancesurvey.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
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