<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 19 Jan 2009, at 17:27, Mikel Maron wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi Peter<br><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>Yesterday we held the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1232046680_0" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dashed; border-bottom-color: rgb(0, 102, 204); cursor: pointer; "><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1232384887_0">first meeting</span></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>of the Licensing working group. At the last<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1232046680_1"><span class="yshortcuts" id="lw_1232384887_1">Foundation Board meeting</span></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>before the holidays, we decided to convene a working group to expedite the final process of moving OSM to the new license. In attendance were Steve Coast and myself from the Board, Grant Slater from the technical team, and Jordan Hatcher, the lawyer who has been working on the ODL.</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div>> I had not heard of this working group before. Could you clarify who is on it, what is the brief for the group and when it was formed? Has Steve's role in this changed or is he still in charge of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the drafting process?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>Well pretty much what I said. We decided to form a working group at the last Foundation Board meeting to help usher the new license into existance and adoption. Steve, Grant and myself are on the working group. Jordan Hatcher was invited to the group due to his involvement in the ODL. Steve is chair of the group.</div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>Possibly you could update timeline article to explain clearly how this license will be implemented, and then we can assist you with that process.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Following this first version, a community of users and legal experts around the license will be developed to generate public comment and review, and work on refinements to the license. As the ODL evolves, OSM will be able to take on new revisions without the large task of getting re-licensing permission from our contributors.<br></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> To be clear. You saying that the full license text will only be available for review by the community 'after' it has been released to the full user base for acceptance? If so then it would seem that<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the next we will see of the license will be a copy in our inbox and a request to sign it or leave the project and have our data removed from the database? If this is the case then it puts a huge<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> responsibility on the board to get it right first time. If you do get it right then that's great. If not then we are all in a bit of mess are we not? Could you say who is 'in the loop' on the license<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> drafting process and has seen each of the recent updates? Have any key external users or bulk data providers seen a recent draft of the license and given their support? What if a major end<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> user (Flickr) or major data provided (AND) has a problem with it?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>We will publish the license as soon as its gone through these final steps of legal review. That will precede the actual process of license adoption. We're not sure of the exact time frame yet, to be discussed this week.</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>I am pleased that we will see the license prior to actual adoption. I think this will be very helpful.</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><br>There's no loop. The license has been in the hands of lawyers, clarifying legal details.</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>To be clear, I would expect that a number of people within OSM and the Foundation would review each draft of the license as produced by the lawyers. Can you say who sees each draft of the license who can confirm that it is heading in the right direction. </div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> I understand from the above that the license will include the provision for an organisation to change the license subsequent to its agreement. It seems a very sensible provision but means we will<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> be placing considerable trust in that organisation. Will this be the OSMF or a different organisation, if so then which one? If it is the Foundation then we urgently need to address<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> the deficiencies in the articles of association which current give far to much control to one person. If it is another organisation then I assume you have thoroughly checked it out.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>This is under discussion, but have to reserve more details for the moment. It is likely not the Foundation.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This core issue still seems to be up in the air which is unfortunate. The organisation, if it is not the Foundation, needs to be highly trusted to make only suitable changes over the long term and maintain the viral elements of the license. I suggest that the Foundation should be the host unless there is an obvious alternative stable alternative.</div><div><br></div><div>If the foundation was the host, then we would need to appoint some really top-notch trustees to agree to any changes to the license, but I think we could now attract them. This would require changes to the articles of assoiciation, and possibly require the foundation to gain charity status, but that is very possible and could happen in the next few months. I would be happy to advice you on this.</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">So what's next? A technical team meeting will be held this week to discuss the technical implementation. Next week we will hold another licensing working group meeting, where we'll produced the final integrated plan of license and technical process, and timeline for moving to the new license. We'll have another update following next week's meeting.<br><br>I'm here to answer any questions.<br></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>> Various questions have been asked on this list over the past few months; I won't repeat them, but I am sure people would welcome some answers. If they are not addressed by the new l<br>> license then it seems likely that they will be raised immediately afterwards which will be more messy and may result in lower uptake.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>We understand the license won't be perfect when it's first released. But we must move forward. With everyone's help, refinements to the license for the next draft will address this questions.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Can we not help on this draft and there does still seem to be a lot to do? Our lawyer should be able to review the license with a 48 hours response time against the Use Cases. We would be happy to pay for this and make the results available to the community.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> Prior to release do update the wiki pages that relate to the new license? I have added a new category 'Open Data Licence' to make it easier to locate these pages. I suggest that in particular<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> you note on the Use Cases page which ones the license will allow and will not allow. This will make it easier for end users to confirm that it is suitable for their needs.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Open_Data_Licence">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Open_Data_Licence</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>There will be thorough communications every step of the way. Might ask for some help from everyone on the wiki though, as there will be quite a lot to update there.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would be happy to help.</div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">> I wish the Foundation success in this important change.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>Thank you!</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>And you!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Peter</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Mikel<br></div><br></div></div><br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>legal-talk mailing list<br><a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></body></html>