<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 23 Jan 2009, at 14:30, Mikel Maron wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Thanks Peter.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>That's a good summation of the reasoning for an evolving license.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>And essential questions on the process. That process must be open and engaging.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>There will be more details next week.</div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>I am glad you like my summation. However, with respect we only ever get told what stage the process has got to, but we don't get any details about the license itself.</div><div><br></div><div>I try to ask very specific and what I consider are reasonable questions, and ones to which answers should be available however they just get passed over. The questions I asked this time were: </div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial; font-size: 13px; ">Will it be possible for the key open elements of it to get removed? I <br>don't know because I haven't seen the text.<br><br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I got no answer</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial; font-size: 13px; ">Who will be able to make changes? I don't know and I don't think the <br>foundation knows either - they certainly haven't said</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>I got no answer. However I note from the December board meeting note (published today) that 'there is currently' no hosting option available other than the foundation', so there was an answer available to the question. For the record I could accept the foundation in this role, but only if serious improvements are made to its governance - which are changes we should be making anyway.</div><div><br></div><div>I have added these questions to 'open issues' so that I don't have the ask them again.</div><div><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Open_Issues">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Open_Issues</a></div><div><br></div><div>Anyway Mikel, it a huge improvement that someone from the foundation posts on this list regularly at all - do keep it up!</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Peter</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br>Best,<br>Mikel<br></div><div style="font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br><br><div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Peter Miller <<a href="mailto:peter.miller@itoworld.com">peter.miller@itoworld.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Licensing and other legal discussions. <<a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 22, 2009 11:36:47 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Licensing Working Group report, 2009/01/22<br></font><br><br>On 22 Jan 2009, at 23:05, andrzej zaborowski wrote:<br><br>> 2009/1/22 Mikel Maron <<a ymailto="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com" href="mailto:mikel_maron@yahoo.com">mikel_maron@yahoo.com</a>>:<br>>> Hi Fredrik<br>>><br>>>> Will they be available to process our input after we see the text?<br>>>><br>>>> Is there any plan for how our feedback will be processed before the<br>>>> public is asked to accept the new license - will it be *our* job <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>>> to take<br>>>> the lawyers' version and our feedback and make something suitable <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>>> from<br>>>> it and then ask everyone to sign up, or will we collect our <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>>> feedback and<br>>>> then again wait for the lawyers to respond?<br>>><br>>> At the same time a first draft of the license is published, a <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> community of<br>>> users<br>>> and legal experts will be established for discussion and refinement <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> of the<br>>> license.<br>>><br>>> We want to move ahead with this draft of the license asap. The <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> license won't<br>>> be perfect,<br>>> but there will definitely be a process for feedback and <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> improvements, and<br>>> the license<br>>> will get there. In the immediate term, the OSM community kick <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> starts this<br>>> process<br>>> by first moving to the first draft of the ODL license.<br>><br>> By moving do you mean starting the relicensing already? What if the<br>> part that most people would like to veto is the one allowing the<br>> passing of new versions without explicit agreement?<br>><br>> I think this is why half of the world uses e.g. GPLv2 or GPLv3<br>> licenses rather than GPLv3+ even though that's what GNU recommends.<br>> AFAIK by having the actual data under the evolving license you expose<br>> it to the sum of all the loopholes present in any version of the<br>> license as it evolved.<br><br>I believe that it will be necessary for the license to be able to <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>evolve within strict constraints without going back to all the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>contributors for approval because that would be impossible. Indeed it <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>is already be impossible, but we have to live with that and we will <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>loose content as a result. If one does not allow the license to evolve <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>then surely it will not be able to adapt to new IPR laws and situations?<br><br>I am however very very interested in who will be able to change the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>license and how much?<br><br>Will it be possible for the key open elements of it to get removed? I <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>don't know because I haven't seen the text.<br><br>Who will be able to make changes? I don't know and I don't think the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>foundation knows either - they certainly haven't said.<br><br>Also, we are being told that there will be very open consultation no <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>future changes to the license.<br><br>Lets hope that Mikel's energy leads to better engagement in the <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>process. Certainly it is a great improvement to have someone to talk <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>to than nobody even if we still have a way to go.<br><br><br>Regards,<br><br><br><br>Peter<br><br><br><br>><br>><br>> Cheers<br>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> legal-talk mailing list<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a ymailto="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>legal-talk mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org" href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>legal-talk mailing list<br><a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></body></html>