This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies, I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you!<br>
Andrei<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com">jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the<br>
wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the<br>
companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first.<br>
mike<br>
<br>
On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5"><<a href="mailto:transportsplan2@gmail.com">transportsplan2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that "using timetables",<br>
> or "using the gps to recreate transportation maps", or even "use a<br>
> transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and<br>
> nothing else", would be "without problem". And then, I got the answer of<br>
> Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great<br>
> chances that timetables would be considered "intellectual creations", and<br>
> hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually<br>
> probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the<br>
> plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site<br>
> without authorization of their owner. So the "apparently, there would be no<br>
> problem" answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a "there should not be<br>
> any problem": Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like<br>
> to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such<br>
> minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the<br>
> number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer<br>
> from a lawyer here.<br>
> But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get<br>
> all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or<br>
> anything to gather 20000 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance<br>
> to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain<br>
> about what data I "stole" from them.<br>
><br>
> And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company,<br>
> on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like<br>
> google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of<br>
> companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely<br>
> certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake<br>
> up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial<br>
> compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that!<br>
> Andrei<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <<a href="mailto:jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com">jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com</a>><br>
>><br>
>> In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are<br>
>> allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another<br>
>> issue. Youc an also make a <a href="http://wikibook.org" target="_blank">wikibook.org</a> about the transportation in<br>
>> france. I dont see why it would be a problem.<br>
>> mike<br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:transportsplan2@gmail.com">transportsplan2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is<br>
>> > more like a "journalistic" thing, so you are more free to put whatever<br>
>> > you<br>
>> > want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here!<br>
>> > And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes<br>
>> > in<br>
>> > a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it<br>
>> > one<br>
>> > day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice<br>
>> > anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to<br>
>> > tell<br>
>> > me if I legally can or not!<br>
>> > Andrei<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <<a href="mailto:jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com">jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com</a>><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I found a reference to albatrans here,<br>
>> >> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> just add this information to wikipedia.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> see also here :<br>
>> >> <a href="http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around" target="_blank">http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> just add all the information you can there and we will see what<br>
>> >> happens.<br>
>> >> mike<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:transportsplan2@gmail.com">transportsplan2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > Hi,<br>
>> >> > what did you mean by "the agency"? What I said was not specific about<br>
>> >> > one<br>
>> >> > agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And<br>
>> >> > neither<br>
>> >> > did<br>
>> >> > I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until<br>
>> >> > I<br>
>> >> > have<br>
>> >> > 20000 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could<br>
>> >> > give<br>
>> >> > me a<br>
>> >> > definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is<br>
>> >> > no<br>
>> >> > more about schedules.<br>
>> >> > My question was only, wether we can use:<br>
>> >> > - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web<br>
>> >> > site's<br>
>> >> > adress<br>
>> >> > - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most<br>
>> >> > lines,<br>
>> >> > to position it on a map,<br>
>> >> > - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban,<br>
>> >> > interurban,<br>
>> >> > etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's<br>
>> >> > importance, and radius of operation. That's all!<br>
>> >> > Maybe a concrete example would help: consider:<br>
>> >> > - Albatrans, web site <a href="http://www.albatrans.net/" target="_blank">http://www.albatrans.net/</a><br>
>> >> > - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible<br>
>> >> > on<br>
>> >> > their site, but on another site,<br>
>> >> > <a href="http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html</a><br>
>> >> > ); and "barycentre of their lines" = around Arpajon, lat/lon=<br>
>> >> > 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers.<br>
>> >> > These<br>
>> >> > two (and only these two) last pieces of info were "extracted" from<br>
>> >> > their<br>
>> >> > transport map available on their site, I admit it.<br>
>> >> > - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen<br>
>> >> > on<br>
>> >> > their page: <a href="http://www.albatrans.net/" target="_blank">http://www.albatrans.net/</a> -> then hit "nos lignes" (not<br>
>> >> > a<br>
>> >> > separate web adress)<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > I gave this example here, because this company happens to be<br>
>> >> > precisely<br>
>> >> > the<br>
>> >> > type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of<br>
>> >> > the<br>
>> >> > few<br>
>> >> > ones that are not on <a href="http://itransports.fr" target="_blank">itransports.fr</a>; I called them several times,<br>
>> >> > over<br>
>> >> > six<br>
>> >> > months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to<br>
>> >> > get<br>
>> >> > any<br>
>> >> > commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course.<br>
>> >> > As<br>
>> >> > you<br>
>> >> > may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of<br>
>> >> > their<br>
>> >> > headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to<br>
>> >> > recieve<br>
>> >> > too<br>
>> >> > much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of<br>
>> >> > company,<br>
>> >> > I<br>
>> >> > want to break: I would like to display at least something about them,<br>
>> >> > without them being able to complain.<br>
>> >> > So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of<br>
>> >> > headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation,<br>
>> >> > and<br>
>> >> > amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display<br>
>> >> > on<br>
>> >> > transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law,<br>
>> >> > without<br>
>> >> > having to ask permission to do so?<br>
>> >> > Thanks<br>
>> >> > Andrei<br>
>> >> > PS: was that more specific than my previous message?<br>
>> >> > 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont <<a href="mailto:jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com">jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com</a>><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> Hi,<br>
>> >> >> I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be<br>
>> >> >> specific.<br>
>> >> >> my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency<br>
>> >> >> or<br>
>> >> >> wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it.<br>
>> >> >> mike<br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko<br>
>> >> >> <<a href="mailto:transportsplan2@gmail.com">transportsplan2@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> >> > Hello again,<br>
>> >> >> > This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole<br>
>> >> >> > transit<br>
>> >> >> > data<br>
>> >> >> > stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set<br>
>> >> >> > of<br>
>> >> >> > things, that someone willing to go to a "lost" place needs to know<br>
>> >> >> > to<br>
>> >> >> > succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost<br>
>> >> >> > places,<br>
>> >> >> > far in<br>
>> >> >> > the countryside), then maybe, the "operating centre" (say,<br>
>> >> >> > headquarters'<br>
>> >> >> > adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of<br>
>> >> >> > "surrounding"<br>
>> >> >> > transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by<br>
>> >> >> > clicking<br>
>> >> >> > a<br>
>> >> >> > place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data<br>
>> >> >> > about<br>
>> >> >> > surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to<br>
>> >> >> > search<br>
>> >> >> > the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here<br>
>> >> >> > of a<br>
>> >> >> > trip I<br>
>> >> >> > made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a<br>
>> >> >> > transit<br>
>> >> >> > agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon<br>
>> >> >> > (West<br>
>> >> >> > Birre<br>
>> >> >> > and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about<br>
>> >> >> > what<br>
>> >> >> > was<br>
>> >> >> > just<br>
>> >> >> > 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter<br>
>> >> >> > how<br>
>> >> >> > hard I<br>
>> >> >> > searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit<br>
>> >> >> > agencies<br>
>> >> >> > that<br>
>> >> >> > operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as<br>
>> >> >> > much<br>
>> >> >> > of<br>
>> >> >> > them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching "their<br>
>> >> >> > name"<br>
>> >> >> > +<br>
>> >> >> > if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might<br>
>> >> >> > have<br>
>> >> >> > found<br>
>> >> >> > something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were<br>
>> >> >> > available on<br>
>> >> >> > the internet (even by some local people that would have put these<br>
>> >> >> > timetables<br>
>> >> >> > on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not<br>
>> >> >> > our<br>
>> >> >> > problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed<br>
>> >> >> > :<br>
>> >> >> > plan,<br>
>> >> >> > and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database<br>
>> >> >> > right.<br>
>> >> >> > The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is<br>
>> >> >> > another<br>
>> >> >> > concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit<br>
>> >> >> > data<br>
>> >> >> > and<br>
>> >> >> > the<br>
>> >> >> > necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about<br>
>> >> >> > their<br>
>> >> >> > lines<br>
>> >> >> > isn't available at all on the internet, then without the<br>
>> >> >> > authorization<br>
>> >> >> > you<br>
>> >> >> > could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract<br>
>> >> >> > anything<br>
>> >> >> > from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization;<br>
>> >> >> > and<br>
>> >> >> > unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps,<br>
>> >> >> > are<br>
>> >> >> > free<br>
>> >> >> > to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I<br>
>> >> >> > think,<br>
>> >> >> > based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this<br>
>> >> >> > problem<br>
>> >> >> > yet.)<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any<br>
>> >> >> > permission,<br>
>> >> >> > to<br>
>> >> >> > put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the<br>
>> >> >> > osm<br>
>> >> >> > (or<br>
>> >> >> > transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the<br>
>> >> >> > barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number<br>
>> >> >> > (amount)<br>
>> >> >> > of<br>
>> >> >> > their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if<br>
>> >> >> > possible,<br>
>> >> >> > the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in<br>
>> >> >> > order<br>
>> >> >> > to<br>
>> >> >> > decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a<br>
>> >> >> > search<br>
>> >> >> > related<br>
>> >> >> > to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its<br>
>> >> >> > transport<br>
>> >> >> > network's "radius" of operation, "how far it can reach", more or<br>
>> >> >> > less.<br>
>> >> >> > Also,<br>
>> >> >> > you could simply classify transit agencies in different<br>
>> >> >> > categories:<br>
>> >> >> > urban,<br>
>> >> >> > interurban, regional, national, if it happens that "average line<br>
>> >> >> > length"<br>
>> >> >> > is<br>
>> >> >> > still too much data to be free of use.<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page<br>
>> >> >> > without<br>
>> >> >> > asking permission to the site's owner?<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at<br>
>> >> >> > least<br>
>> >> >> > be<br>
>> >> >> > something you could systematicly say about all transit agencies,<br>
>> >> >> > wether<br>
>> >> >> > they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any<br>
>> >> >> > strong<br>
>> >> >> > dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters'<br>
>> >> >> > adress<br>
>> >> >> > is<br>
>> >> >> > still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then<br>
>> >> >> > find<br>
>> >> >> > another<br>
>> >> >> > relevant set of coordinates. At least something!<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency?<br>
>> >> >> > Isn't<br>
>> >> >> > it<br>
>> >> >> > using<br>
>> >> >> > a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the<br>
>> >> >> > owner<br>
>> >> >> > of<br>
>> >> >> > the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems<br>
>> >> >> > to<br>
>> >> >> > have<br>
>> >> >> > the authorization to display almost anything about a company when<br>
>> >> >> > you<br>
>> >> >> > search<br>
>> >> >> > for it - on google, but still...<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like<br>
>> >> >> > that<br>
>> >> >> > on<br>
>> >> >> > the<br>
>> >> >> > "not asking the authorization" thing: I only believe that it could<br>
>> >> >> > make<br>
>> >> >> > the<br>
>> >> >> > gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the<br>
>> >> >> > coverage<br>
>> >> >> > of<br>
>> >> >> > the<br>
>> >> >> > transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be<br>
>> >> >> > really<br>
>> >> >> > great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And<br>
>> >> >> > besides,<br>
>> >> >> > it<br>
>> >> >> > would<br>
>> >> >> > need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with<br>
>> >> >> > every<br>
>> >> >> > single<br>
>> >> >> > transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially<br>
>> >> >> > if<br>
>> >> >> > they<br>
>> >> >> > never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any<br>
>> >> >> > reason<br>
>> >> >> > they<br>
>> >> >> > may have...<br>
>> >> >> > Good night<br>
>> >> >> > Andrei<br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> >> > legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> >> >> > <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> >> > <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >> ><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> --<br>
>> >> >> James Michael DuPont<br>
>> >> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania<br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://flossk.org" target="_blank">flossk.org</a> <a href="http://flossal.org" target="_blank">flossal.org</a><br>
>> >> >><br>
>> >> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> >> legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> >> >> <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> >> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> > legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> >> > <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> > <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> James Michael DuPont<br>
>> >> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania<br>
>> >> <a href="http://flossk.org" target="_blank">flossk.org</a> <a href="http://flossal.org" target="_blank">flossal.org</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> James Michael DuPont<br>
>> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania<br>
>> <a href="http://flossk.org" target="_blank">flossk.org</a> <a href="http://flossal.org" target="_blank">flossal.org</a><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> legal-talk mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> legal-talk mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" target="_blank">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
James Michael DuPont<br>
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania<br>
<a href="http://flossk.org" target="_blank">flossk.org</a> <a href="http://flossal.org" target="_blank">flossal.org</a><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>