Hi Michael,<div><br></div><div>First of all, thanks for the link. I've read it carefully and it doesn't really answer my questions, it just raises some new ones. Those guidelines, as they are written, treat the issue of proprietary/closed source code very superficially and without considering too much the practical consequences. They also don't really answer the question "what is a Database". Let's take, for example, the statement "Rendering databases, for example those produced by Osm2pgsql, are clearly databases". First of all, what are "rendering databases"? I don't share the same "clearliness" of that statement, frankly.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Another issue is "machine-readable form" of an algorithm. Who says I should interpret that as a source code? And if I do, under what license can/should/must I release the source code? I'm certainly not going to release my work under the Public Domain.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I think the core issue that needs to be addressed and answered is: <b>is there a place for proprietary/closed source software in OSM ecosystem</b>? If we follow the "strict reading" logic of the mentioned guideliness and the one expressed in Frederik's answer, I would certainly have to say the answer is NO. </div>
<div><br></div><div>I see some serious issues with the way how we approach the whole ODbL thing. As someone who has invested a lot of time and energy into OSM and who is trying to find a business model that would enable me to stay in the OSM domain, I think the core questions about ODbL have not been answered and this scares people/companies off. If the OSM community wants all the OSM-based software to be open source, then please say so. But please treat all the players the same: Apple, esri, Google and one-man-band companies.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Igor<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Michael Collinson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mike@ayeltd.biz" target="_blank">mike@ayeltd.biz</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Hi Igor,<br>
<br>
I wonder if this resource helps with your question?<br>
<br>
<a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline</a>
(a work in progress)<br>
<br>
Mike<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
On 22/10/2012 18:45, Igor Brejc wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for your clarifications, everybody. I was under the
(looks like wrong) impression the produced work must also be available
under the ODbL license.</div>
<div>One issue still bugs me though:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-size:12.8px;font-family:arial,sans-serif">If
the closed software you have used did not work on the data directly,
but on some sort of pre-processed or augmented data, then *that* would
be the data you have to hand over.</span></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What does "pre-processed or augmented" data really mean? OSM
data has to be preprocessed to get to the form suitable for rendering.
Some examples of preprocessing:</div>
<div>
<ol>
<li>Importing it into PostGIS and flattening the geometries (like
Mapnik does it).</li>
<li>Generalizations: simplifications of roads, polygons etc. for a
certain map scale.</li>
<li>Finding suitable label placements.</li>
<li>Extracting topology from the data (like multipolygon
processing, merging of polygons, road segments etc.).</li>
<li>Running other complex algorithms on the OSM data.</li>
</ol>
</div>
<div>This preprocessing can be done "on-the" fly or (in case of
Mapnik) as a separate prerequisite step.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Igor</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 2:06 PM, Frederik
Ramm <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
On 10/22/12 12:07, Igor Brejc wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">
2. I generate a PDF map from that extract using an unpublished,
<div><br>
closed-source software. The map includes the appropriate OSM<br>
attribution text.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">
1. Is this possible?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes (assuming that the PDF is not a database).<br>
<br>
> 2. What are my obligations in terms of ODbL license? What (if
anything)
<div><br>
> do I have to provide, publish etc.?<br>
<br>
</div>
Recipients of the PDF, i.e. anyone who views iStockPhoto, would have
the right to ask you to hand over the database on which the map is
based. You would then have the option of saying "it's plain OSM, simply
download it from <X>", or actually give them the data.<br>
<br>
If the closed software you have used did not work on the data directly,
but on some sort of pre-processed or augmented data, then *that* would
be the data you have to hand over.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">
3. Would there be a difference if it was PNG/SVG instead of PDF?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I don't think so.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex">
4. Can the buyer of such a map then password-protect his own resulting
<div><br>
work (which includes that map)?<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes. You will have sold him the work under the condition that he
continues to attribute OSM, but other than that he has no obligations
(unless you put some in).<br>
<br>
If you sell the work with an OSM attribution but without the condition
to perpetuate that attribution, you may be in breach of ODbL or you may
not; this depends on how you interpret the "suitably calculated to make
anyone ... aware" clause.<br>
<br>
Bye<span><font color="#888888"><br>
Frederik<br>
</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>