<div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Frederik,</div><div><br></div><div>Here's why I disagree. The meaning of "derived" in a colloquial sense and the definition of "Derivative Database" are not the same.</div><div>While colloquially, it may be fair to interpret "derived" as "made from" or "could not have been made without", that is not the legal definition of "Derivative Database".</div><div><br></div><div>From ODbL:<br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">“Derivative Database” – Means a database based upon the Database, and</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">Contents. This includes, but is not limited to, Extracting or</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">Re-utilising the whole or a Substantial part of the Contents in a new</span><br style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">Database.</span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><br></span></div>So a Derivative Database must include a "translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the<br>Contents." In other words, it has to include in the new database at least a substantial part of what was in the previous database.<br>The inference of "with pubs" would not be, in my mind, a "translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the<br>Contents" because it is too minor of an inference.<br><div>I view Mattias's usecase as *using* OSM, not *making a Derivative Database from OSM*.</div><div>I would also say that, looking back at the EU Database Directive, I do not see a case for breach of the restricted rights, particularly the right of "translation, adaptation, arrangement and any other alteration."</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">With respect to Mateusz's more extreme example, this is also very specifically covered in the Geocoding Guidelines: "<span style="color:rgb(30,32,33);font-family:osmftext,sans-serif;font-size:16.52px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none">A collection of Geocoding Results will be considered a systematic attempt to aggregate data if it is used as a general purpose geodatabase, regardless of how the original aggregation was accomplished."</span></span></span></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><br></span></span></span></div><div>In other worse, if, as in Mateusz's hypothetical, you attempt to abuse the system to reverse engineer a database that is equivalent to OSM, you make a Derivative Database. But Mattias has been very clear that is not what he's doing. He just wants to display the subparts of a list of points he already has on a different layer than the other subparts. <br></div><div><br></div><div>-Kathleen<br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 12:49 AM Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Kathleen,<br>
<br>
On 12.12.19 23:40, Kathleen Lu via legal-talk wrote:<br>
> No, ODbL does not apply to any database that does not include OSM data.<br>
<br>
Are you sure about this? Let me give an example:<br>
<br>
> If I understand your usecase correctly, Matthais, you are essentially<br>
> checking your list against OSM boundaries. If something is both on your<br>
> list and within the OSM boundary, then you say 'yes, this goes on the<br>
> secondary list.' Then you want to publish your secondary list. There is<br>
> no OSM data in the secondary list so it is not a Derivative Database.<br>
<br>
Let us assume I have a list of all streets in Germany with their<br>
geometry, from a non-OSM source.<br>
<br>
I want to divide these into two groups: streets that have at least one<br>
pub, and streets that have no pub.<br>
<br>
Using OSM information about the location of pubs, I count the number of<br>
pubs along each street, allowing me to make the desired separation.<br>
<br>
I end up with a database of "streets that have at least one pub". This<br>
database does not include OSM data.<br>
<br>
In my eyes, though, it is still *derived* from OSM data. It is the<br>
result of an algorithmic process that has made use of OSM data; if you<br>
will, the OSM data residue is in the name/description of my new<br>
database: "roads with pubs". It is derived from OSM; it could not have<br>
been made without OSM.<br>
<br>
Do you disagree?<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail <a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a>  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div>