<div dir="ltr"><div><div>Nuno - I think you are operating under the mistaken assumption that a CC-BY-SA license would mean that uses such as Mattias's would require sharealike. <br></div><div><br></div><div>Here's CC-BY-SA's definition of a Derivative Work:</div><div><strong style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">"Derivative Work"</strong><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span> </span>means a work based upon the Work or upon the Work and other pre-existing works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which the Work may be recast, transformed, or adapted, except that a work that constitutes a Collective Work will not be considered a Derivative Work for the purpose of this License. For the avoidance of doubt, where the Work is a musical composition or sound recording, the synchronization of the Work in timed-relation with a moving image ("synching") will be considered a Derivative Work for the purpose of this License.</span></div><div><br></div>Here's CC-BY-SA's definition of a Collective Work:<br><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><strong style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">"Collective Work"</strong><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"><span> </span>means a work, such as a periodical issue, anthology or encyclopedia, in which the Work in its entirety in unmodified form, along with a number of other contributions, constituting separate and independent works in themselves, are assembled into a collective whole. A work that constitutes a Collective Work will not be considered a Derivative Work (as defined below) for the purposes of this License.</span></span></div><br></div><div>As you can see from these examples (which focus on creative derivatives, since facts are not even copyrightable in the US and there is no US database protection law), a "derivative work" needs quite a bit of the original to qualify. The meaning of a "derivative work" was always much narrower than what a colloquial understanding of what "derived" might be, and the change in license did not change that. <br></div><div><br></div><div>-Kathleen<br></div><div><br><br><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:11px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,204);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;display:inline;float:none"></span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 11:11 AM Nuno Caldeira <<a href="mailto:nunocapelocaldeira@gmail.com">nunocapelocaldeira@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">these new Liberal interpretation of ODbL are funny. to bad it's not documented what we wanted when we changed license. seems to be full of lies <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Historic/We_Are_Changing_The_License" target="_blank">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Historic/We_Are_Changing_The_License</a><div dir="auto"><i><br></i></div><div dir="auto"><i>"This means that “good guys” are stopped from using our data but the “bad guys” may be able to use it anyway." </i></div><div dir="auto"><i><br></i></div><div dir="auto"><i>" We believe that a reasonable consensus has been built that our current
progress should be to maintain a Share-Alike license (see more below)
but have it written explicitly for data."</i></div><div dir="auto"><i><br></i></div><div dir="auto"><i>"Both licenses are “By Attribution” and “Share Alike”." </i></div><div dir="auto"><i><br></i></div><div dir="auto"><i>"But what happens if the Foundation is taken over by people with commercial interests?</i></div>
<ul><li><i>You still own the rights to any data you contribute, not the
Foundation. In the new Contributor Terms, you license the Foundation to
publish the data for others to use and ONLY under a free and open
license.</i></li></ul><ul><li><i>The Foundation is not allowed to take your contribution and release it under a commercial license.</i></li></ul><ul><li><i>If
the Foundation fails to publish under only a free and open license, it
has broken its contract with you. A copy of the existing data can be
made and released by a different body.</i></li></ul><ul><li><i>If a change is made to another free and open license, it is active contributors who decide yes or no, not the Foundation."</i></li></ul><div dir="auto"><br></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 13 Dec 2019, 18:56 Frederik Ramm, <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<br>
On 13.12.19 19:28, Kathleen Lu via legal-talk wrote:<br>
> “Derivative Database” – Means a database based upon the Database, and<br>
> includes any translation, adaptation, arrangement, modification, or any<br>
> other alteration of the Database or of a Substantial part of the<br>
> Contents.<br>
<br>
Interesting. I knew the ODbL text but I have always glossed over this<br>
definition, assuming that "well you know what derived means".<br>
<br>
I'll have to ponder this for a while, it changes some assumptions I had<br>
made. It would mean that, for example, a database that contains a count<br>
of all pubs in each municipality, or a database that contains the<br>
average travel time from a building in a city to the nearest hospital,<br>
or a heatmap of ice cream parlours, would not fall under the ODbL<br>
because these, while derived from OSM, do not actually contain a copy of<br>
anything in OSM (and neither could they possibly be used to reassemble<br>
OSM).<br>
<br>
I had until now assumed that such works would definitely fall under the<br>
ODbL but you are right, they don't really fit the "Derivative Database"<br>
definition.<br>
<br>
Bye<br>
Frederik<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
legal-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
legal-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">legal-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div>