<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Frederik<div><br></div><div>Your linking to pre war German politics is not justified even by claiming that you were taught this stuff in school, adapting it to the conversation about OSMF structure and strategy is both perverse and offensive. You seem to take delight in deliberately misinterpreting whatever anyone posts to this and other lists, I doubt that your views are any more representative of OSM or OSMF views than any of the posts you pick apart.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for reminding me why not to post to the OSM lists.<br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><font color="#999999">_____________________</font><br><div class="moz-signature"><div class="moz-signature"><div class="moz-signature"><div class="moz-signature"><div class="moz-signature"><div class="moz-signature"><font color="#999999" face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><font color="#999999"><b><br>Steven Feldman</b></font><br><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span></span>
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<br><div><div>On 25 Aug 2012, at 12:00, <a href="mailto:osmf-talk-request@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk-request@openstreetmap.org</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Send osmf-talk mailing list submissions to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:osmf-talk-request@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk-request@openstreetmap.org</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="mailto:osmf-talk-owner@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk-owner@openstreetmap.org</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of osmf-talk digest..."<br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Question to Board Members - Taking Responsibility<br> (Frederik Ramm)<br><br><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Frederik Ramm <<a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">25 August 2012 09:54:58 GMT+01:00<br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(127, 127, 127, 1.0);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>Re: [Osmf-talk] Question to Board Members - Taking Responsibility</b><br></span></div><br><br>Steven,<br><br>On 25.08.2012 10:06, Steven Feldman wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Today I don't know who is responsible<br></blockquote><br>[...]<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">can't be the board meeting a few times a year as a part time role,<br></blockquote><br>The board will always be responsible for every aspect of OSMF work; even if they hire an executive director and 10 technicians it is still the board who will ultimately be accountable.<br><br>However you are mixing up OSM and OSMF in your post; of course the board is *not* responsible for what the sum of OSM participants does. Many people do what you seem to do, and equate OSMF with OSM. They inherently believe that whatever happens in the OSM project must have been due to OSMF having steered the project there; it's a world view in which people cannot make a meaninful contribution unless somehow instructed by an organisation that has defined goals for them. I don't subscribe to this world view and I think that OSM as it is now proves that this world view is not universally correct.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Steve suggested that now might be the time to consider an OSM staff<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">team, I think he is right. OSM is a big project, it needs people<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">to commit time and take responsibility for some of the key strands that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">have been discussed endlessly of the lists<br></blockquote><br>Many of the strands that have been discussed endlessly are completely outside the scope of anything where OSMF could "take responsibility", please don't forget that.<br><br>To give just one example: Every now and again we have people calling for a "tagging czar" because they are tired of discussing how to tag something. But in my view while the process of finding the right tags for something and building a consensus is often arduous, takes a lot of time and trial-and-error, and can certainly be improved, it cannot be simply solved by installing an authority that, in your words, "takes responsibility".<br><br>If you were to install a staff team then its main function would have to be to facilitate the consensus building in the community (which, needless to say, is some orders of magnitude more complex than simply doing a doodle poll).<br><br><blockquote type="cite">and most importantly those<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">people need to be given the trust to get on and do something by the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">community rather than having to gain consensus on every detail.<br></blockquote><br>Trust is not given, trust is earned. You would have to find a staff team with solid roots in the community, long-time OSMers who can be trusted to do the right thing. You can't just post a job offer somewhere and hope the right people would turn up. It would be difficult, and it would be dangerous. I try to resist drawing political parallels but whenever I hear people say what you're saying above - and you are by far not the first! - I think of this: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933</a>; a state handing over power to an individual because they believe that then at least someone makes the decisions.<br><br>It is so easy - point to one of the various 100-article threads about the web site design on the mailing list, claim that this is proof that the project is mired in controversy and cannot make the "necessary" (for some definition of necessary) decisions, appoint people to do it for them.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It would<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">be a big change and it would ruffle even more collars than the license<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">change but I think it would be worth it.<br></blockquote><br>You would have to explain in very much detail what "it" would be and how it would be worth it. This will probably involve explaining your vision for OSM, and I have a suspicion that you, like quite a few others, are viewing OSM with the same eyes that you would view a startup company, and therefore also applying similar criteria for what is desirable and what counts as "success". I think that OSM must not be confused with a startup company.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">This is a discussion that we should be having, it is possibly the key<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">strategic decision for OSM.<br></blockquote><br>I don't think that there is a key strategic decision to be taken at this point in time.<br><br>I think it is prudent to first define what OSMF wants to do, then attach price tags to these "desirables", then decide which of those we can afford (or what we have to do to afford them), and then proceed. Whether or not doign the things we want requires us to hire staff is, in my eyes, secondary.<br><br>Bye<br>Frederik<br><br>-- <br>Frederik Ramm ## eMail <a href="mailto:frederik@remote.org">frederik@remote.org</a> ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>osmf-talk mailing list<br><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>