<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hello Simon,<br><br></div>I am a bit familiar about the LWG work since I was a member of the group during the licence change. I am very happy with what the LWG is doing and I believe that it is the right way to have legal minded people who cares about the project. This is effectively what led to the license change in the first place: having some legal minded and looking through at the licence we used back then. I consider the odbl to be a great license. I had the chance to talk to Jordan Hatcher and Benjamin Jean over the years and I have learned one thing: I will never be a lawyer or a jurist. Even OSMF has been making use of some jurists over the year. I even talked to some of them as I was on the LWG.<br></div><br>Now, as you are probably quite familiar with how the business world works, having a LWG will be considered not enough for many corporations. I have worked for 2 different organizations where I got involved with the legal aspects of the licenses and the implication about the license change. LWG is definitely good guidance but for larger corporations, the LWG was not seen as a viable interlocutor because lacking "credentials". That said, having credentials doesn't necessarily make you good at what you do but from a business perspective it will look more reassuring. <br><br></div>Heck, I even tend to be relatively strongly against building OSMF too much so we don't become another Wikimedia. I am ambivalent about corporate membership in the first place but I can see why we would want that. I have to be pragmatic. Now, for me, the legal bit is not about creating some dual speed lanes for legal advice at OSMF but having <s>sold my soul to big business</s> worked enough in corporate environments, I can see why we would want to add an option for the corporate minded. Now, if you decide to go with corporate membership, I think we need to play along.<br><br></div>Again, for me, this is not about removing the LWG voice, this is to add a new one. This is how I perceive it and this is why I welcome a serious discussion on this thread about how we should go. Please note though that while class warfare vocabulary has a certain ring to it, I think it is a bit fallacious especially considering that we ended up voting that we want corporate memberships. We have to be coherent. Ultimately, as I said, I am ambivalent about the whole corporate membership bit, so if we do it, we better do it right.<br><br></div>Now, if as you say, it is about removing a voice, then I will happily side with you. I never thought I would have such a discussion in the first place due to what I believe in in the first place. <br><br></div>Emilie Laffray<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Simon Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Emilie</p>
<p>I have some difficulties understanding what the issue is supposed
to be, since the licence change, slightly over 3 and a half years,
the OSMF is the licensor of the OSM data and the LWG has been the
primary contact for legal questions, further for the last one and
a half years who to contact has been better documented in al
relevant places, in other words the single point of contact has
been there as long as it has been legally possible to talk with
one voice. The discussion now is about removing that (for the
plebs), not adding one.</p><span class=""><font color="#888888">
<p>Simon</p></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<p><br>
</p>
<div>Am 29.04.2016 um 05:29 schrieb Emilie
Laffray:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello Kate,<br>
<br>
</div>
I agree that there is definite interest in having one legal
voice for the foundation. I have been contacted roughly two
weeks ago on that particular topic (a French company) and I
think this would be quite useful for many companies that we have
such a point of contact.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Kate
Chapman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kate@maploser.com" target="_blank">kate@maploser.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Steve,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The intent was not to be a slight on the LWG. I was
viewing it more as "multiple companies have expressed
interest in this, why not make some money for the
foundation in the process?" </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have been talking to various companies using OSM,
but if anyone has additional contacts they think I
should contact please let me know. It would be also
useful if people reading this mailing list work for or
own those companies to let us know what you think. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Kate</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:39
AM, Steve Coast <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:steve@asklater.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:steve@asklater.com" target="_blank">steve@asklater.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="#954F72" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">+1</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Simon & others have
been doing a great job on this.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">It’s not clear to me that
OSMF needs to offer a lawyer as a service to
corporate members. Certainly there is one
company which appears to want this and has
pushed for things like this a lot, but all
the others that I have talked to don’t have
this need.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The OSM way is to try to
do things bottom up, driven by what the
community wants to see. Or in this case
perhaps what the corporate members might
want to see as services that would be
useful. I hope we are talking to not just
one, but the many others on what they would
love to see.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Steve</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="border:medium none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">Simon Poole</a><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Thursday, April 28, 2016
9:29 AM<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><span><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Osmf-talk] Draft
New Corporate Membership Tiers</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just to be clear, we
answered over 200 inquiries to</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:legal-questions@osmfoundation.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:legal-questions@osmfoundation.org" target="_blank">legal-questions@osmfoundation.org</a>
in 2015 with a typical same day</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">response , the rare
complicated questions which needed
discussion or</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">similar naturally
take longer, but that wouldn't change in
any future</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">model. I'm fairly
sure any paid service is going to be a
LOT worse.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Simon</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Am 28.04.2016 um
15:30 schrieb Tim Waters:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Hello,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> In the Silver
tier, members get a ticket to a business
workshop, and</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> in higher tiers
they get tickets to a conference.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Would the
workshop be within the business
conference, or is it meant</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> to be the same
thing?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Is the business
conference envisaged as being the
business day at a</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> SOTM, and as
such also available for members of the
public, or would</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> it be private?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Regarding the
Legal Counsel - if corporate members pay
for this</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> service, would
there be an expectation on the
foundation to provide</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> this as a perk
or a paid service (e.g. 24 hours
turnaround on an</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> email, 1
telephone call per month etc). If so, is
it imagined that</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> there would be
limits to both working group volunteers
and how much</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> money the
foundation pays the lawyers. Do we think
that it would</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> increase or
decrease the load on working group
members if they have to</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> answer more
corporate legal queries, and have the
expectation to</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> deliver a
quality level of product? Thinking
further, could we have a</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> situation where
volunteers get income from the
Foundation from</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> answering
corporate members enquiries?</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> If it's not
imagined to be a paid service, but
rather, an additional</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> feature of the
Foundation, should it be available to
non corporate</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> members of the
Foundation? As I'm sure many normal
members would also</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> like to be able
to formally clarify one or two questions
from time to</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> time.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> Tim</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">>
_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> osmf-talk
mailing list</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
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