<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div>Hello Simon,<br><br></div>I am a bit familiar about the LWG work since I was a member of the group during the licence change. I am very happy with what the LWG is doing and I believe that it is the right way to have legal minded people who cares about the project. This is effectively what led to the license change in the first place: having some legal minded and looking through at the licence we used back then. I consider the odbl to be a great license. I had the chance to talk to Jordan Hatcher and Benjamin Jean over the years and I have learned one thing: I will never be a lawyer or a jurist. Even OSMF has been making use of some jurists over the year. I even talked to some of them as I was on the LWG.<br></div><br>Now, as you are probably quite familiar with how the business world works, having a LWG will be considered not enough for many corporations. I have worked for 2 different organizations where I got involved with the legal aspects of the licenses and the implication about the license change. LWG is definitely good guidance but for larger corporations, the LWG was not seen as a viable interlocutor because lacking "credentials". That said, having credentials doesn't necessarily make you good at what you do but from a business perspective it will look more reassuring. <br><br></div>Heck, I even tend to be relatively strongly against building OSMF too much so we don't become another Wikimedia. I am ambivalent about corporate membership in the first place but I can see why we would want that. I have to be pragmatic. Now, for me, the legal bit is not about creating some dual speed lanes for legal advice at OSMF but having <s>sold my soul to big business</s> worked enough in corporate environments, I can see why we would want to add an option for the corporate minded. Now, if you decide to go with corporate membership, I think we need to play along.<br><br></div>Again, for me, this is not about removing the LWG voice, this is to add a new one. This is how I perceive it and this is why I welcome a serious discussion on this thread about how we should go. Please note though that while class warfare vocabulary has a certain ring to it, I think it is a bit fallacious especially considering that we ended up voting that we want corporate memberships. We have to be coherent. Ultimately, as I said, I am ambivalent about the whole corporate membership bit, so if we do it, we better do it right.<br><br></div>Now, if as you say, it is about removing a voice, then I will happily side with you. I never thought I would have such a discussion in the first place due to what I believe in in the first place. <br><br></div>Emilie Laffray<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Simon Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>Emilie</p>
    <p>I have some difficulties understanding what the issue is supposed
      to be, since the licence change, slightly over 3 and a half years,
      the OSMF is the licensor of the OSM data and the LWG has been the
      primary contact for legal questions, further for the last one and
      a half years who to contact has been better documented in al
      relevant places, in other words the single point of contact has
      been there as long as it has been legally possible to talk with
      one voice. The discussion now is about removing that (for the
      plebs), not adding one.</p><span class=""><font color="#888888">
    <p>Simon</p></font></span><div><div class="h5">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>Am 29.04.2016 um 05:29 schrieb Emilie
      Laffray:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Hello Kate,<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        I agree that there is definite interest in having one legal
        voice for the foundation. I have been contacted roughly two
        weeks ago on that particular topic (a French company) and I
        think this would be quite useful for many companies that we have
        such a point of contact.<br>
        <br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Kate
          Chapman <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kate@maploser.com" target="_blank">kate@maploser.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">Hi Steve,
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>The intent was not to be a slight on the LWG. I was
                viewing it more as "multiple companies have expressed
                interest in this, why not make some money for the
                foundation in the process?" </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>I have been talking to various companies using OSM,
                but if anyone has additional contacts they think I
                should contact please let me know. It would be also
                useful if people reading this mailing list work for or
                own those companies to let us know what you think. </div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>Best,</div>
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div>-Kate</div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 8:39
                    AM, Steve Coast <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:steve@asklater.com" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:steve@asklater.com" target="_blank">steve@asklater.com</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div link="blue" vlink="#954F72" lang="EN-US">
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">+1</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Simon & others have
                            been doing a great job on this.</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">It’s not clear to me that
                            OSMF needs to offer a lawyer as a service to
                            corporate members. Certainly there is one
                            company which appears to want this and has
                            pushed for things like this a lot, but all
                            the others that I have talked to don’t have
                            this need.</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">The OSM way is to try to
                            do things bottom up, driven by what the
                            community wants to see. Or in this case
                            perhaps what the corporate members might
                            want to see as services that would be
                            useful. I hope we are talking to not just
                            one, but the many others on what they would
                            love to see.</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Best</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Steve</p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                          <div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                            <p class="MsoNormal" style="border:medium none;padding:0in"><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">Simon Poole</a><br>
                              <b>Sent: </b>Thursday, April 28, 2016
                              9:29 AM<br>
                              <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><span><br>
                                <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Osmf-talk] Draft
                                New Corporate Membership Tiers</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal">Just to be clear, we
                            answered over 200 inquiries to</p>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:legal-questions@osmfoundation.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:legal-questions@osmfoundation.org" target="_blank">legal-questions@osmfoundation.org</a>
                                in 2015 with a typical same day</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">response , the rare
                                complicated questions which needed
                                discussion or</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">similar naturally
                                take longer, but that wouldn't change in
                                any future</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">model. I'm fairly
                                sure any paid service is going to be a
                                LOT worse.</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Simon</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">Am 28.04.2016 um
                                15:30 schrieb Tim Waters:</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> Hello,</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> In the Silver
                                tier, members get a ticket to a business
                                workshop, and</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> in higher tiers
                                they get tickets to a conference.</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> Would the
                                workshop be within the business
                                conference, or is it meant</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> to be the same
                                thing?</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> Is the business
                                conference envisaged as being the
                                business day at a</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> SOTM, and as
                                such also available for members of the
                                public, or would</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> it be private?</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> Regarding the
                                Legal Counsel - if corporate members pay
                                for this</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> service, would
                                there be an expectation on the
                                foundation to provide</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> this as a perk
                                or a paid service (e.g. 24 hours
                                turnaround on an</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> email, 1
                                telephone call per month etc). If so, is
                                it imagined that</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> there would be
                                limits to both working group volunteers
                                and how much</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> money the
                                foundation pays the lawyers. Do we think
                                that it would</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> increase or
                                decrease the load on working group
                                members if they have to</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> answer more
                                corporate legal queries, and have the
                                expectation to</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> deliver a
                                quality level of product? Thinking
                                further, could we have a</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> situation where
                                volunteers get income from the
                                Foundation from</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> answering
                                corporate members enquiries?</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> If it's not
                                imagined to be a paid service, but
                                rather, an additional</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> feature of the
                                Foundation, should it be available to
                                non corporate</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> members of the
                                Foundation? As I'm sure many normal
                                members would also</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> like to be able
                                to formally clarify one or two questions
                                from time to</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> time.</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> Tim</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">>
                                _______________________________________________</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> osmf-talk
                                mailing list</p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"></a><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank"></a><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      osmf-talk mailing list<br>
                      <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
                      <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            osmf-talk mailing list<br>
            <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
            <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre>_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>