<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Thanks, John. Heather has my vote.<br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature">This message was handcrafted by a clumsy thumb pressing letters on a tiny, cranky keyboard.</div><div><br>On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:09 AM, john whelan <<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">>PS: my own contributions have been around building the imagery workflows
 around MapGive and codifying OSM practices for the World Bank, rather 
than editing the map. I spent my time coordinating a small team that got
 these pixels out to tens of thousands of mappers and writing a field 
guide for OpenDRI to convince ministers and technocrats to trust the 
map, rather than tracing that imagery. I should map more, but policy 
work is just as meaningful.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Have you considered standing?  It's very much policy matters that the board handles.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;font-size:small">Cheerio John<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 23 November 2017 at 10:56, John Crowley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bostoncello@gmail.com" target="_blank">bostoncello@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>Severin’s post should make us pause as a community. </div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>Heather’s contribution to OSM and HOT cannot be measured in edits; it can be measured in new relationships, trust, and donor goodwill—all fragile things that public, toxic diatribes can diminish quickly. I have relied on Heather to organize mapathons, recruit potential donors and champions of mapping, and to create systems and processes to integrate OSM with the larger humanitarian system. I have watched her inspire both kids and hardened bureaucrats to learn to map. She is a deeply valued member of my team at IFRC.</div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>As we scale OSM, we need Heather’s skills as much as edits. In fact, we should create a roadmap of other non-mapping skills necessary to run OSMF. </div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>As a community, we must choose: do we grow into a mature organization where dialogue between viewpoints builds a culture worthy of the trust that major institutions place in us when they use or map? or do we choose retain the politics of personal attack such as what sometimes happen on this list, albeit rarely as starkly as Sev’s shameful post.</div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>We *can* have a culture that welcomes different perspectives and builds on the collective intelligence of diverse pool of contributors, some of whom do things to support mapping rather than just mapping itself. But we must actively choose it.</div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>John</div>
        <div><br></div>
        <div>PS: my own contributions have been around building the imagery workflows around MapGive and codifying OSM practices for the World Bank, rather than editing the map. I spent my time coordinating a small team that got these pixels out to tens of thousands of mappers and writing a field guide for OpenDRI to convince ministers and technocrats to trust the map, rather than tracing that imagery. I should map more, but policy work is just as meaningful.</div><div><br></div><div>PPS: <span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">to Simon’s point: do years of consistently toxic delivery point to a need to improve rhetoric, or to an underlying problem within the heart of the writer?</span></div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><div><br>On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:41 AM, Dale Kunce <<a href="mailto:dale.kunce@gmail.com" target="_blank">dale.kunce@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="auto"><div>We have chosen to talk about the delivery because it's something that can and should be considered out of bounds and bad for this community. His underlying message is often devoid of actual fact, so we ignore it. Proving a false is almost impossible and is especially impossible on these forums. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I get that Heather doesn't have that many edits in OSM. I can perceive how that would be an issue for some members of the community. However,  I strongly disagree that the most frequent mappers make the best board members. Heather through her work on the HOT board and working with communities is responsible for many more edits and OSM growth than a simple changeset count. The OSMF board needs broader skill sets than the ability to correctly create a relation or write a bit of code.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 23, 2017 7:17 AM, "Simon Poole" <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="m_-2798638774376192663quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div class="m_-2798638774376192663quoted-text">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738moz-cite-prefix">Am 23.11.2017 um 16:01 schrieb Joseph
      Reeves:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">Simon,
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>With all respect:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
          <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Actually this seems to be
              the time honoured deflection tactic that we've seem so
              often on this list: focus on the form (undoubtedly some of
              the adjectives used could have been chosen better), minor
              details and then start mincing words around that to move
              focus from the actual issue at hand,</span></div>
          <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
            </span></div>
        </blockquote>
        <span style="font-size:12.8px">This is not an OK thing to say.</span></div>
    </blockquote></div>
    Serverin has been intensely critical of HOT Inc for a long time,
    Pete as a HOT board member, Ben and you as voting members, are all
    very aware of that. <br>
    <br>
    Every time, really every time Severin has spoken out about HOT in
    public, people have jumped on his imperfect delivery of the message.
    Its a shame that he doesn't improve on it, because it always ends
    the same way, the delivery is discussed, not the message. <br><font color="#888888">
    <br>
    Simon  <br></font><div class="m_-2798638774376192663elided-text">
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">If people post on a mailing
            list on the topic of their feelings, regarding the conduct
            of another member or otherwise, you have no reason to either
            say that their feelings are invalid, or a "deflection
            tactic".</span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">You may consider that you
            have a critical input on wide ranging areas of the OSM
            ecosystem, but you certainly can't tell people how they
            feel, or claim that they're lying about their feelings for
            some sort of listmail gain.</span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Yours is a worrying
            response,</span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Joseph</span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
        <div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
          </span></div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On 23 November 2017 at 14:16, Simon
          Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>
                <p><br>
                </p>
                <br>
                <div class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122moz-cite-prefix">Am
                  23.11.2017 um 14:26 schrieb Pete Masters:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">I agree with you, Simon. My viewpoint
                    isn't opposed to Rob's!
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Anyone should be able to publicly challenge and
                      question candidates - as equally we are able to
                      challenge the premise of those same questions. If
                      Sev truly believes that our leaders should have
                      one or ten or a hundred thousand changesets to
                      their name, that's fine. I don't have to agree and
                      I can respond as such.</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </span> Actually this seems to be the time honoured
              deflection tactic that we've seem so often on this list:
              focus on the form (undoubtedly some of the adjectives used
              could have been chosen better), minor details and then
              start mincing words around that to move focus from the
              actual issue at hand,<br>
              <br>
              It should, IMHO, be left to the reader to gauge what is
              relevant to the discussion, and have confidence that they
              will ignore any irrelevant and superficial information. I
              don't think you'll find many that consider the editor used
              to contribute to OSM a particularly important piece of
              information.<span><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>My point is that the language Sev uses is
                      disrespectful, personal and hurtful. That's not ok
                      in my book.... Firstly, for Heather - no-one
                      should have to read that. And secondly, because
                      this hostility <i>discourages</i> debate and
                      divides community.</div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </span> I don't think we can expect everybody to put their
              criticism in a sandwich (<a class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dmh.mo.gov/dd/docs/tieredsupportsummarythesandwichmethod.pdf" target="_blank">https://dmh.mo.gov/dd/docs/ti<wbr>eredsupportsummarythesandwichm<wbr>ethod.pdf</a>)
              just to make it more palatable to the recipient, and, as
              has already been said, its an election, the nature of the
              thing is that it is about personal qualifications.<span class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
                  <br>
                  Simon<br>
                   <br>
                </font></span>
              <blockquote type="cite"><span>
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Cheers,</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Pete</div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at
                      1:25 PM, joost schouppe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joost.schouppe@gmail.com" target="_blank">joost.schouppe@gmail.com</a>></span>
                      wrote:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div class="gmail_extra">
                            <div class="gmail_quote"><span>2017-11-23
                                13:42 GMT+01:00 Rob Nickerson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rob.j.nickerson@gmail.com" target="_blank">rob.j.nickerson@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div dir="auto">
                                    <div>It's a difficult one because if
                                      you stand for one of these two
                                      vacancies then you open your self
                                      up to challenge - essential for a
                                      functioning democracy. On the
                                      other hand challenging via the
                                      written medium is hard to get
                                      right. 
                                      <div dir="auto"><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div dir="auto">Thinking about TV
                                        interviews of politicians I can
                                        imagine presenters putting these
                                        same challenges to the
                                        candidate. I.e. they seem like
                                        reasonable challenges to have.</div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </span>
                              <div>Well, I haven't seen TV interviews
                                where a journalist says something like
                                "you seem to know nothing about health
                                care, isn't it shameless to offer to be
                                minister of health". (but maybe I don't
                                watch TV enough?). </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>This really sets the tone:</div>
                              <span>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>> <span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">Seeking
                                    to join the board of the OSM
                                    Foundation with such a high OSM
                                    profile is really shameless</span></div>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </span>
                              <div>I am all for challenging candidates,
                                but shaming them goes a bit further than
                                that. I'd hate to think that the best
                                candidates for this election are not
                                participating because they prefer not to
                                be publicly shamed in this way. Sure,
                                you have the right to say things like
                                this here, but I doubt very strongly
                                that this kind of tone is good for the
                                project. Just stating the facts as you
                                see them, might have led to a discussion
                                about facts. Now we're just going to
                                discuss wether or not this kind of talk
                                is OK or not.</div>
                              <span class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                </font></span></div>
                            <span class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br>
                                <div class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122m_5222074126163018376gmail_signature">
                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                    <div>
                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                        <div>
                                          <div dir="ltr">
                                            <div>
                                              <div dir="ltr">Joost
                                                Schouppe</div>
                                              <div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/" target="_blank">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/joostjakob" target="_blank">Twitter</a> | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603" target="_blank">Link<wbr>edIn</a> | <a href="http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/" target="_blank">Meetup</a></div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </font></span></div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <br clear="all">
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    -- <br>
                    <div class="m_-2798638774376192663m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
                      <div dir="ltr">
                        <div>
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div dir="ltr"><b style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">Pete Masters</font></b><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="ltr"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
                                <a href="https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps" style="color:rgb(0,0,255);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" target="_blank"><u><font size="3" color="#0000FF">@pedrito1414</font></u></a><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
                                </font><br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
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                  <br>
                </span><span>
                  <pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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</pre>
                </span></blockquote>
              <br>
            </div>
            <br>
            ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
            osmf-talk mailing list<br>
            <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
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            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
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</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>______________________________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>osmf-talk mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
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