<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Severin’s post should make us pause as a community. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Heather’s contribution to OSM and HOT cannot be measured in edits; it can be measured in new relationships, trust, and donor goodwill—all fragile things that public, toxic diatribes can diminish quickly. I have relied on Heather to organize mapathons, recruit potential donors and champions of mapping, and to create systems and processes to integrate OSM with the larger humanitarian system. I have watched her inspire both kids and hardened bureaucrats to learn to map. She is a deeply valued member of my team at IFRC.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As we scale OSM, we need Heather’s skills as much as edits. In fact, we should create a roadmap of other non-mapping skills necessary to run OSMF. </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As a community, we must choose: do we grow into a mature organization where dialogue between viewpoints builds a culture worthy of the trust that major institutions place in us when they use or map? or do we choose retain the politics of personal attack such as what sometimes happen on this list, albeit rarely as starkly as Sev’s shameful post.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>We *can* have a culture that welcomes different perspectives and builds on the collective intelligence of diverse pool of contributors, some of whom do things to support mapping rather than just mapping itself. But we must actively choose it.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>John</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>PS: my own contributions have been around building the imagery workflows around MapGive and codifying OSM practices for the World Bank, rather than editing the map. I spent my time coordinating a small team that got these pixels out to tens of thousands of mappers and writing a field guide for OpenDRI to convince ministers and technocrats to trust the map, rather than tracing that imagery. I should map more, but policy work is just as meaningful.</div><div><br></div><div>PPS: <span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">to Simon’s point: do years of consistently toxic delivery point to a need to improve rhetoric, or to an underlying problem within the heart of the writer?</span></div><div><br></div><div><br>On Nov 23, 2017, at 10:41 AM, Dale Kunce <<a href="mailto:dale.kunce@gmail.com">dale.kunce@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="auto"><div>We have chosen to talk about the delivery because it's something that can and should be considered out of bounds and bad for this community. His underlying message is often devoid of actual fact, so we ignore it. Proving a false is almost impossible and is especially impossible on these forums. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I get that Heather doesn't have that many edits in OSM. I can perceive how that would be an issue for some members of the community. However, I strongly disagree that the most frequent mappers make the best board members. Heather through her work on the HOT board and working with communities is responsible for many more edits and OSM growth than a simple changeset count. The OSMF board needs broader skill sets than the ability to correctly create a relation or write a bit of code.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Nov 23, 2017 7:17 AM, "Simon Poole" <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div class="quoted-text">
<p><br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="m_4478793409078790738moz-cite-prefix">Am 23.11.2017 um 16:01 schrieb Joseph
Reeves:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Simon,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With all respect:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Actually this seems to be
the time honoured deflection tactic that we've seem so
often on this list: focus on the form (undoubtedly some of
the adjectives used could have been chosen better), minor
details and then start mincing words around that to move
focus from the actual issue at hand,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
<span style="font-size:12.8px">This is not an OK thing to say.</span></div>
</blockquote></div>
Serverin has been intensely critical of HOT Inc for a long time,
Pete as a HOT board member, Ben and you as voting members, are all
very aware of that. <br>
<br>
Every time, really every time Severin has spoken out about HOT in
public, people have jumped on his imperfect delivery of the message.
Its a shame that he doesn't improve on it, because it always ends
the same way, the delivery is discussed, not the message. <br><font color="#888888">
<br>
Simon <br></font><div class="elided-text">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">If people post on a mailing
list on the topic of their feelings, regarding the conduct
of another member or otherwise, you have no reason to either
say that their feelings are invalid, or a "deflection
tactic".</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">You may consider that you
have a critical input on wide ranging areas of the OSM
ecosystem, but you certainly can't tell people how they
feel, or claim that they're lying about their feelings for
some sort of listmail gain.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Yours is a worrying
response,</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Joseph</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 23 November 2017 at 14:16, Simon
Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p><br>
</p>
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<div class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122moz-cite-prefix">Am
23.11.2017 um 14:26 schrieb Pete Masters:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I agree with you, Simon. My viewpoint
isn't opposed to Rob's!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyone should be able to publicly challenge and
question candidates - as equally we are able to
challenge the premise of those same questions. If
Sev truly believes that our leaders should have
one or ten or a hundred thousand changesets to
their name, that's fine. I don't have to agree and
I can respond as such.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span> Actually this seems to be the time honoured
deflection tactic that we've seem so often on this list:
focus on the form (undoubtedly some of the adjectives used
could have been chosen better), minor details and then
start mincing words around that to move focus from the
actual issue at hand,<br>
<br>
It should, IMHO, be left to the reader to gauge what is
relevant to the discussion, and have confidence that they
will ignore any irrelevant and superficial information. I
don't think you'll find many that consider the editor used
to contribute to OSM a particularly important piece of
information.<span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My point is that the language Sev uses is
disrespectful, personal and hurtful. That's not ok
in my book.... Firstly, for Heather - no-one
should have to read that. And secondly, because
this hostility <i>discourages</i> debate and
divides community.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span> I don't think we can expect everybody to put their
criticism in a sandwich (<a class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://dmh.mo.gov/dd/docs/tieredsupportsummarythesandwichmethod.pdf" target="_blank">https://dmh.mo.gov/dd/docs/ti<wbr>eredsupportsummarythesandwichm<wbr>ethod.pdf</a>)
just to make it more palatable to the recipient, and, as
has already been said, its an election, the nature of the
thing is that it is about personal qualifications.<span class="m_4478793409078790738HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Simon<br>
<br>
</font></span>
<blockquote type="cite"><span>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Pete</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at
1:25 PM, joost schouppe <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:joost.schouppe@gmail.com" target="_blank">joost.schouppe@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>2017-11-23
13:42 GMT+01:00 Rob Nickerson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rob.j.nickerson@gmail.com" target="_blank">rob.j.nickerson@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>It's a difficult one because if
you stand for one of these two
vacancies then you open your self
up to challenge - essential for a
functioning democracy. On the
other hand challenging via the
written medium is hard to get
right.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Thinking about TV
interviews of politicians I can
imagine presenters putting these
same challenges to the
candidate. I.e. they seem like
reasonable challenges to have.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>Well, I haven't seen TV interviews
where a journalist says something like
"you seem to know nothing about health
care, isn't it shameless to offer to be
minister of health". (but maybe I don't
watch TV enough?). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This really sets the tone:</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>> <span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">Seeking
to join the board of the OSM
Foundation with such a high OSM
profile is really shameless</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</span>
<div>I am all for challenging candidates,
but shaming them goes a bit further than
that. I'd hate to think that the best
candidates for this election are not
participating because they prefer not to
be publicly shamed in this way. Sure,
you have the right to say things like
this here, but I doubt very strongly
that this kind of tone is good for the
project. Just stating the facts as you
see them, might have led to a discussion
about facts. Now we're just going to
discuss wether or not this kind of talk
is OK or not.</div>
<span class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
</font></span></div>
<span class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br>
<div class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122m_5222074126163018376gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Joost
Schouppe</div>
<div dir="ltr"><a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/joost%20schouppe/" target="_blank">OpenStreetMap</a> | <a href="https://twitter.com/joostjakob" target="_blank">Twitter</a> | <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pub/joost-schouppe/48/939/603" target="_blank">Link<wbr>edIn</a> | <a href="http://www.meetup.com/OpenStreetMap-Belgium/members/97979802/" target="_blank">Meetup</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_4478793409078790738m_-845113532266870122gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><b style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">Pete Masters</font></b><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<a href="https://twitter.com/TheMissingMaps" style="color:rgb(0,0,255);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" target="_blank"><u><font size="3" color="#0000FF">@pedrito1414</font></u></a><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</font><br>
</div>
</div>
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