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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 30.11.2017 um 01:08 schrieb Dale
Kunce:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADOF=4JGNxxCnN9rY0F9FjWujMRjkdF=1cAcFRiyVGS9a4Bx4w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">...<br>
<div>One thing I think about a lot when the conversation of HOT
being somehow separate from OSM is what would the map look
like. What would happen if all of edits ever made by HOT were
reverted overnight? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
You are conflating edits claimed by HOT Inc (essentially anything
that remotely was made in the context of HOT Inc going in to panic
mode, which is all the time), with actual edits made by Hot Inc
members and staff, I think we could easily survive reverting the
later (that is not saying that it would be a good idea). In general
I find the marketing trick of trying to count everybody that ever
edited in the context of a task on the HOT Inc tasking server, as a
HOT Inc supporter as rather tasteless, for example it includes
myself (yes and my edits are good and should remain :-)).<br>
<br>
To be clear the discussion here is not about people that have edited
in the context of HOT (note the missing Inc) gaining more influence,
it is about a small self-selected, near sectarian group getting more
influence, those organised in HOT Inc. <br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADOF=4JGNxxCnN9rY0F9FjWujMRjkdF=1cAcFRiyVGS9a4Bx4w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>What would the map look like if all of the technology
created by HOT to do its humanitarian mission and help the OSM
community didn't exist? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
What if HOT Inc had added task manager functionality to the rails
port? Now that would have really been helpful. <br>
<br>
What if HOT Inc would support building on and improving the tools
that already existed instead of re-inventing the wheel essentially
every time? (Yes I know the background is that is easier to sell and
has the benefit of funnelling money specifically to friendly orgs
and companies)<br>
<br>
What if HOT Inc would support a contribution model that didn't
require everything to be done twice and validators were free to
actually map the important things well the first time?<br>
<br>
What if HOT Inc wouldn't promote the "building geometry" cult?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADOF=4JGNxxCnN9rY0F9FjWujMRjkdF=1cAcFRiyVGS9a4Bx4w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My answer to the above is the map would not be better, we
as an OSM community would not be better off. The same
questions could be asked of any larger sub-group within OSM
and the the answers would be the same. We are better off with
the collective experience and skills of everyone on the
project.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Lastly, I would hazard to say that most HOT mappers view
themselves as OSM mappers that happen to do humanitarian
mapping more than the other way around.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
What if HOT Inc. would stop pretending that they are morally better
people and are "mapping for good", contrary to the other lesser
beings?<br>
<br>
In my book all contributions to OSM are "humanitarian".<br>
<br>
Simon<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CADOF=4JGNxxCnN9rY0F9FjWujMRjkdF=1cAcFRiyVGS9a4Bx4w@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Simon,</div>
<div>Understood. I'd be curious if we could figure out a way to
measure/track both (OSMF membership and OSM as a whole).
Especially guessing that both metrics are probably out of
whack and not representative as the world as a whole.</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Simon
Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="">
<p>Am 29.11.2017 um 21:57 schrieb Dale Kunce:<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Lots of people here have expressed an
interest in having geographic diversity on the
board. Maybe this is cart before the horse. I'm
curious what the metrics are behind the actual
membership is made up of. I know that we don't have
demographic data for OSMF members but do we have at
least a country or regional breakdown. Maybe the
first step is to start actively recruiting more OSMF
members in under represented areas.
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span> Just so that words don't get put in my mouth: I
was referring to "our overall community" not the OSMF
membership which may, or may not show a similar
distribution as actual mappers (we simple don't know).
Depending on ones stance, that may or may not be
desirable. <br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"> <br>
Simon<br>
</font></span><br>
PS:
<a class="m_-5765039642366641252moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/f/fa/Continental_distribution_2016.png"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.<wbr>org/w/images/f/fa/Continental_<wbr>distribution_2016.png</a>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Dale</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at
10:59 AM, Simon Poole <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><br>
<br>
Am 29.11.2017 um 19:45 schrieb Rihards:<br>
> On <a href="tel:2017.11.29.%2020"
value="+12017112920" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">2017.11.29. 20</a>:41,
john whelan wrote:<br>
>> The other part of perception is HOT
is inc in the USA. Donald's recent<br>
>> tweets may not reflect HOT's views
but the association maybe drawn by some.<br>
> if i got the reference right, that's an
extremely long stretch that i do<br>
> not agree with, but acknowledge that it
might be noticed by somebody.<br>
<br>
</span>I don't think that anybody particularly
associates Trump with the US<br>
board members :-). There is naturally an
issue. that particularly if you<br>
believe that the board should be a
representative body (not necessarily<br>
a believe I hold) there has been a long time
over-representation of<br>
North America, mainly at the expense of Asia
and developing countries.<br>
But that is just one of many imbalances
relative to the make up of our<br>
overall community.<br>
<span class="m_-5765039642366641252HOEnZb"><font
color="#888888"><br>
Simon<br>
</font></span>
<div class="m_-5765039642366641252HOEnZb">
<div class="m_-5765039642366641252h5">><br>
>> Cheerio John<br>
>><br>
>> On 29 November 2017 at 13:29,
Rihards <<a
href="mailto:richlv@nakts.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">richlv@nakts.net</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a
href="mailto:richlv@nakts.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">richlv@nakts.net</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> On <a
href="tel:2017.11.29.%2020"
value="+12017112920" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">2017.11.29. 20</a>
<a
class="m_-5765039642366641252moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="tel:2017.11.29.%2020"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><tel:2017.11.29.%2020></a>:21,
Martijn van Exel wrote:<br>
>> >> On Nov 29, 2017, at
10:02 AM, Christoph Hormann <<a
href="mailto:chris_hormann@gmx.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chris_hormann@gmx.de</a>
<mailto:<a
href="mailto:chris_hormann@gmx.de"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">chris_hormann@gmx.de</a>>>
wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Wednesday 29
November 2017, Martijn van Exel wrote:<br>
>> >>> [...] Merely<br>
>> >>> having an
affiliation DOES NOT represent a conflict
of interest. A<br>
>> >>> conflict of
interest only arises when a topic is being
addressed<br>
>> >>> where a board
member has an interest in the topic
stemming from their<br>
>> >>> outside
affiliation that may not align with the
interest of OSMF.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> I am no expert on
conflicts of interests but i think this is
not quite<br>
>> >> correct. As i
understand it a conflict of interest
exists based on the<br>
>> >> possibility of an
undue influence of a secondary interest,
not just if<br>
>> >> such an influence is
actually exercised in a meaningful way.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> My understanding is
that even if you know/believe your
secondary<br>
>> >> interests (for
example as a Telenav employee) align
perfectly with the<br>
>> >> interests of the
OSMF on a certain matter or even if you
intend to act<br>
>> >> against these
secondary interests you would still have
to recuse<br>
>> >> yourself from
participation in a decision making process
on matters<br>
>> >> where your employer
has an interest in due to the possibility
that<br>
>> >> these interests do
not align perfectly and you might put
these<br>
>> >> interests above your
obligation as a board member.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Correct, but there still
needs to be a situation to give rise to a
conflict of interest, as the Companies Act
states clearly. Merely having an
affiliation does not constitute a conflict
of interest in and of itself.<br>
>><br>
>> the biggest problem seems to
be not a legal one, but more of the<br>
>> perception, the image. harsh
reaction and bringing up the companies act<br>
>> might do the opposite -
convince the concerned that their concerns
have<br>
>> been valid and things are
"legally clean but ugly".<br>
>><br>
>> personally, i trust the HOT
members in osmf, but i am concerned with
the<br>
>> perception angle. as an
example, what if all osmf board members
were<br>
>> from HOT, would it make the
concern more clear ?<br>
>><br>
>> this might be a slight
difference between the eu/usa viewpoints
(sorry<br>
>> to other regions, i'm less
familiar with the cultural nuances there).<br>
>> european contributors
sometimes view usa as a very
corporate-centered<br>
>> place with little grassroots
activity and volunteering, and HOT has
been<br>
>> run more as a company, less
as a community.<br>
>><br>
>> the suggestion regarding the
working groups was very interesting. if
the<br>
>> HOT members who are on or are
running for the board would explain why<br>
>> they are aiming for the board
instead of contributing at the working<br>
>> groups (where they might even
be able to have a bigger impact), that<br>
>> might help to reduce the
concerns that have been expressed here and<br>
>> elsewhere.<br>
>><br>
>> > I think I caused
confusion where I stated that the board
has been able to self-regulate this. This
may have implied that we rely on each
other to call each other out on potential
CoI. This is not the case, I trust my
fellow board members to disclose when
needed, and this has happened on a few
occasions.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Martijn<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
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<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="m_-5765039642366641252gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div>sent from my mobile device</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dale Kunce</div>
<div><a href="http://normalhabit.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://normalhabit.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div>sent from my mobile device</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dale Kunce</div>
<div><a href="http://normalhabit.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://normalhabit.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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