<div dir="ltr">Hi again,<div><br></div><div>I think most of the questions for me have been answered by others, so I'm not sure this is needed - but for the sake of speaking for myself:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where you experienced</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">hostility and personal tensions?</span><br style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-size:12.8px">And if yes, I'd like to see if and why any CoC would have helped.<br></span><br>- As Ian suggests, I find it impossible not to notice personal tensions on this list over the past week or so. I think this misses the point, though. My point is answering the question of "Are there people who don't feel comfortable in this space". My answer is yes and that I don't think this viewpoint should be dismissed, especially by people who contribute more regularly and seem more comfortable in this space (and are almost all male), and thus may not be able to relate to how other OSMF members experience the mailing list. </div><div><br></div><div>In terms of being asked for more info in the first place: I certainly don't mind clarifying, although I think it misses the point. Instead of having to qualify and explain this, I would hope people would read that and consider that perhaps there is more substance than they'd previously considered to the idea that "this mailing list does not feel like a safe space for some people". Would a CoC solve this? I'm not an expert and I don't think there's a way to guarantee that. But I personally would appreciate some sort of reference point (I don't really care what it's named) about what we as a community strive for in our communications and what I can expect / shouldn't have to expect by voicing my opinions. Can a member say anything they like about me personally and attribute it to a cultural difference? If so, I'm out. Should community standards be reasonable so that community standards aren't a way to persecute or silence people? Of course. I think there's a way to do both and that we should work towards this.</div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-size:12.8px">I don't mean to speak for Emily, but it's clear that some people post more, use stronger language, and nitpick others' points more than others. I can see how that might be taken to mean "loudest".</div><div><br></div><div>- This is exactly what I mean by the "louder" voices - sorry if that wasn't clear. There are a handful of members (almost all male) having this conversation and most other members are silent, as Leslie notes as well. </div></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks everyone,</div><div>Emily</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Kai Krueger <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kakrueger@gmail.com" target="_blank">kakrueger@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hi,<br>
</p><span class="">
<br>
<div class="m_-8266919646963734394moz-cite-prefix">On 12/3/17 4:31 PM, Joseph Reeves
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Stefan,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Again, I said that I didn't think your email was in
violation of a potential CoC, I said that it would potentially
have a chilling effect. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my opinion, the mistake you've made is to take a post
about the atmosphere of a mailing list and to think that this
is the sort of thing that would be subject to a CoC procedure.</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span>
Is this indeed common consensus? I.e. that statements in the CoC
like "be kind" or "be respectful" do not apply to arguments that
"have a chilling effect" and "make people uncomfortable" or
"disengage from the community"? If that is indeed consensus, I
suspect that would alleviate some of the fears by those who worry
that a CoC could end up stiefeling honest but (perhaps overly)
passionate debates. But then how could we codify that in the
language of the CoC to ensure that indeed it can't be used in these
situations?<br>
<br>
And if indeed the CoC isn't there to protect people who feel
uncomfortable within an aggressive intellectual argument, then what
does protect people from it and ensure that their voice is respected
even if they decide not to participate in a hugely long email
thread?<br>
<br>
Could perhaps having more community surveys be one solution? I.e.
for example on the topic of CoC. The argument pro and con can
continue on the mailing list for those who wish to continue and
those who wish to disengage can ignore the topic. At the same time
OSMF creates a member survey asking "Do you favour a CoC: Yes/No",
who's results are only recorded anonymously. So hopefully everyone
feels safe to answer their true believes and the membership's
opinion is recorded more accurately than by counting how many emails
were sent.<br>
<br>
Another solution, as has already been proposed, perhaps is to have
separate email lists. There is the osmf-announce list, which every
osmf member gets subscribed to and only contains actual
announcements, and the occasional information cross reference of
"There is a discussion about CoC on the osmf-talk, if you you want
to participate or read up about it, then subscribe to osmf-talk. If
you feel uncomfortable with the intensity of the argument, then here
are the other options of expressing your opinion or getting a
condensed summary"<span class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The original question was "<span style="color:rgb(80,0,80);font-size:12.8px">Some people feel
frightened to participate in mailing lists?"</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And Emily answered "yes": Pressing someone to explain their
feelings, whilst asking them for specifics that we'd apply a
hypothetical CoC to, is not encouraging participation.</div>
</div>
</blockquote></span>
Imho, this is a little more complex. Obviously everyone is entitled
to their feelings and no, if they don't want to, they don't need to
justify them. However, if we want to find solutions and compromises
to problems, then yes, imho we do need to understand and probe the
specifics. I.e. understand what does and does not make one feel
un/comfortable. If we changed something, would that help or hurt?
Are there ways of how to help make you less frightened to
participate? What are the down sides? Are those downsides in the end
acceptable to the community?<br>
<br>
This is not necessarily a pleasant process, particularly to those
who were on the uncomfortable side to start with. But imho in the
end, on a policy debate level somewhat necessary and thus we
shouldn't prevent uncomfortable expressions of opinions.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Kai <br></font></span><div><div class="h5">
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers, Joseph</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 3 December 2017 at 23:11, Stefan
Keller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sfkeller@gmail.com" target="_blank">sfkeller@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Joseph<br>
<br>
> 2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <<a href="mailto:iknowjoseph@gmail.com" target="_blank">iknowjoseph@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<br>
Now I'm feeling stifled :-(!<br>
But it's worth to observe how "mechanisms" of a CoC would be
applied -<br>
and how this conversation is being turned ad adsurdum!<br>
<span class="m_-8266919646963734394HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
:Stefan<br>
</font></span>
<div class="m_-8266919646963734394HOEnZb">
<div class="m_-8266919646963734394h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
2017-12-03 23:56 GMT+01:00 Joseph Reeves <<a href="mailto:iknowjoseph@gmail.com" target="_blank">iknowjoseph@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
> Hi Stefan,<br>
><br>
> Arguably this email is an example of one that would
stifle someone's desire<br>
> to speak freely. I'm not saying that I would
consider it falling foul of a<br>
> CoC policy, but it's not a welcoming or inviting
entry to further<br>
> discussion.<br>
><br>
> The argument goes that a CoC would have a chilling
effect on mailing list<br>
> discussions, but to prevent this situation people
are asked to cite specific<br>
> examples to defend their feelings; you can't create
a chilling effect to<br>
> protect your own perceived communication rights. In
short, if somebody<br>
> states how they feel, it's not OK to insist that
they provide specific<br>
> evidence for this feeling. Doing so is potentially
stifling others and<br>
> creates the chilling effect you are claiming to be
working against.<br>
><br>
> Look again at your email. Emily wrote:<br>
><br>
>> but this space feels fraught with hostility and
personal tensions<br>
>> - some of which goes years back.<br>
><br>
> In your response you asked for specific examples
that Emily has suffered:<br>
><br>
>>Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where
you experienced<br>
>>hostility and personal tensions?<br>
><br>
> Without doubt you will have seen hostility and
personal tension on the list<br>
> over the last couple of weeks. It would be
impossible not to see that. But<br>
> you've asked Emily for a specific instance relating
to her. The point is,<br>
> the hostility and personal tension is discouraging
to many people, whether<br>
> or not it was directed specifically, and
personally, towards themselves.<br>
> Asking for someone to point out a specific instance
that they have suffered<br>
> abuse is not OK, misses the point of Community
Standards, and only threatens<br>
> to worsen the situation.<br>
><br>
> Joseph<br>
><br>
> On 3 December 2017 at 22:24, Stefan Keller <<a href="mailto:sfkeller@gmail.com" target="_blank">sfkeller@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Emily and Andrew<br>
>><br>
>> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <<a href="mailto:emily.eros@gmail.com" target="_blank">emily.eros@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>> > but this space feels fraught with
hostility and personal tensions<br>
>> > - some of which goes years back.<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks for sharing your feelings.<br>
>><br>
>> Can you pls. point to a mailing list post where
you experienced<br>
>> hostility and personal tensions?<br>
>> And if yes, I'd like to see if and why any CoC
would have helped.<br>
>><br>
>> 2017-12-03 22:27 GMT+01:00 Andrew Matheny <<a href="mailto:andrewdmatheny@gmail.com" target="_blank">andrewdmatheny@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>> > What I think is happening today is that
new users sign up<br>
>> > for the mailing lists, they see what is
sent back and forth,<br>
>> > and then they either disengage or
unsubscribe.<br>
>><br>
>> Can you pls. give some examples where this
happened?<br>
>><br>
>> I'm mainly aware of rather experienced mappers
who habe been engaged<br>
>> in disputes (as its happening in any online
community).<br>
>><br>
>> Would'nt a netiquette have handled that -
perhaps reminded by others,<br>
>> and finally by a moderator or OSMF group
member?<br>
>><br>
>> :Stefan<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> 2017-12-03 23:06 GMT+01:00 Emily Eros <<a href="mailto:emily.eros@gmail.com" target="_blank">emily.eros@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
>> > Hi all,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As someone who generally doesn't
participate in these mailing lists, I<br>
>> > very<br>
>> > much disagree with this statement:<br>
>> > "Some people feel frightened to
participate in mailing lists? Well, I<br>
>> > think<br>
>> > it's very exaggerated and makes me smile
in general."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I can wholeheartedly say that YES, this is
a space that I don't feel<br>
>> > comfortable participating in. It's great
to see people passionate about<br>
>> > OSM,<br>
>> > but this space feels fraught with
hostility and personal tensions - some<br>
>> > of<br>
>> > which goes years back. It's easy to feel
like saying something is going<br>
>> > to<br>
>> > leave me feeling attacked. For me, I don't
see an obvious way to<br>
>> > contribute<br>
>> > and try to make this better, so YES, it is
very tempting to just<br>
>> > disengage.<br>
>> > I know I'm not alone in that, so I'd
really encourage you to take it<br>
>> > seriously when people say that they don't
feel comfortable contributing<br>
>> > to<br>
>> > the mailing lists.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To me, it seems like all the loudest
voices are the ones having this<br>
>> > conversation. As someone who participates
less, I can say that the<br>
>> > existence<br>
>> > of a CoC (carefully drafted, with
community input and caution about how<br>
>> > to<br>
>> > design this well) is something that would
make me feel more comfortable<br>
>> > here.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > "In that context, and without any
intention to offend anyone, I'd give<br>
>> > more<br>
>> > value in this matter to the opinion of
people who are more likely to be<br>
>> > the<br>
>> > victims of harassment and abusive
behavior, compared to the opinion of<br>
>> > white<br>
>> > males who argue out of the safety of their
privileged status."<br>
>> ><br>
>> > +1 to that, and thanks to Nikos for
pointing it out.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > My two cents.<br>
>> > Emily<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 11:12 AM, Nikos
Roussos <<a href="mailto:comzeradd@fsfe.org" target="_blank">comzeradd@fsfe.org</a>><br>
>> > wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > I have more interesting things to
do in life,<br>
>> >> > like mapping for example.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> So you only do one interesting thing
at a time? Please let's avoid<br>
>> >> undervaluing what other people may
find interesting.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> > Any code of conduct will make
people more or less autocensure. I<br>
>> >> > can't<br>
>> >> > see any interest of having that
thing, unless for control.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> If a CoC make people to auto-censor
from abusive behavior I'd say it's<br>
>> >> worth it.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> This is a nice read on the value of a
CoC in a community:<br>
>> >> <a href="http://incisive.nu/2014/codes-of-conduct/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://incisive.nu/2014/codes-<wbr>of-conduct/</a><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> For those who don't have the time to
read it all a very good argument<br>
>> >> is<br>
>> >> that "you aren’t creating a code of
conduct only - or even primarily -<br>
>> >> for<br>
>> >> the people who are likely to break it.
You’re creating it to make it<br>
>> >> clear<br>
>> >> to anyone who has been harmed or
harassed, online or off, that your<br>
>> >> space is<br>
>> >> safe for them."<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> In that context, and without any
intention to offend anyone, I'd give<br>
>> >> more<br>
>> >> value in this matter to the opinion of
people who are more likely to be<br>
>> >> the<br>
>> >> victims of harassment and abusive
behavior, compared to the opinion of<br>
>> >> white<br>
>> >> males who argue out of the safety of
their privileged status.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> >> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> >> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> > osmf-talk mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> > <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
>> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
>> <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.or<wbr>g/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
><br>
><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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</pre>
</blockquote>
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