<div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">>determining fee waiver based on hardship (lack of funding) was determined to be to arbitrary/controversial </span><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">That may be, but the board are legally bound by the vote at the AGM to find a solution to that. If the MWG cannot agree a solution then the board must step in to resolve this.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">P.s. I don't agree that it is of secondary importance. As noted, in some countries GBP 15 is a very significant amount when compared to daily wages.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Thank you,</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-family:sans-serif;font-size:12.8px">Rob</span></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 15 Nov 2018, 18:04 Jonathan Witcoski <<a href="mailto:jwitcoski@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">jwitcoski@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Hello all,<div><br></div><div>During the MWG discussions the subject of determining fee waiver based on hardship (lack of funding) was determined to be to arbitrary/controversial and secondary to the more pressing issue which was the ability to pay the membership fee through current means such as paypal, to the british bank account, or other means. We have a half a dozen cases of folks in African and Asian countries who cannot pay due to high transaction fees to british banks (the transaction fees higher than the cost of membership) or where paypal will not function (<a href="https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/bigcommerce/security/prohibited-countries" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Pay Pal restricted country list</a>). </div><div><br></div><div>The proposed waiver program wording can be found here: </div><div><a href="https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/OSMF_Fee_Waiver_Program" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://etherpad.wikimedia.org/p/OSMF_Fee_Waiver_Program</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><div id="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-magicdomid26" class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-ace-line" style="margin:0px;padding:0px"><div id="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-magicdomid26" class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-ace-line" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">The most important point being that the Fee Waiver Program would be for "an active contributor"? (as defined here:<a href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Contributor_Terms</a>) "a natural person (whether using a single or multiple accounts) </div><div id="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-magicdomid26" class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-ace-line" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">who has edited the Project in any three calendar months from the last 12 months (i.e. there is a demonstrated interest over time)</div><div id="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-magicdomid26" class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-ace-line" style="margin:0px;padding:0px"><br></div><div id="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-magicdomid26" class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990gmail-ace-line" style="margin:0px;padding:0px">Jonathan</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 12:43 PM nicolas chavent <<a href="mailto:nicolas.chavent@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">nicolas.chavent@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Hey John, <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I agree with you and see the fees waver only a short term option for this immediate election, even if we came up with a low fees, we need to have some sort of fees mechanism and not make an OSMF membership something automatic and 100% granted based on the location in a "South" country. </div><div dir="auto">There's a lot of talk and thought to find a solution here, interested about the outcomes of such a conversation during the election, at the membership and membershipwg levels after the election. </div><div dir="auto">It has only be surfaced here. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Le jeu. 15 nov. 2018 à 18:26, John Whelan <<a href="mailto:jwhelan0112@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">jwhelan0112@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="font-family:Verdana;font-size:12pt" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Verdana">However allowing the whole of Africa to join
and vote for free would seriously unbalance the representation of other
mappers especially if they were organised to join. The current
percentage of active mappers who are also members of OSMF isn't that
high.<br><br>Just an idle thought. <br><br>Cheerio John<br><br><span>Blake
Girardot wrote on 2018-11-15 12:08 PM:</span><br><blockquote type="cite"><pre>Hi,
Considering that 80% of the world lives on less than USD $2.00 per
day, a pretty long list of countries' residents should just be
automatically eligible for the fee waiver.
There are various groupings of countries based on average daily living
funds used or other economic indicators, I would suggest selecting a
list of countries that applicants from automatically are eligible for
the waiver to reduce the overhead on the decision process and reduce
the burden for those applying.
Cheers,
Blake
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:37 AM Mikel Maron <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mikel.maron@gmail.com></a> wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>Essentially that's my understanding, yes. Since we don't have a form link ready, email with the same information is still fine. Not sure if requests will be directly decided on by the Membership Working Group or the Board yet.
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Thursday, November 15, 2018, 11:29:37 AM EST, nicolas chavent <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nicolas.chavent@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><nicolas.chavent@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Thanks Mikel. So to be 100% clear, by filling a form (URL yet to be retrieved or emailing the OSMF) a mapper is asking not pay any of the whole 15£ yearly OSMF registration fees and shall an OSMF committee of some sort assess afterwards this demand as relevant, he/she becomes an OSMF member eligible to vote, is this correct ?
Le jeu. 15 nov. 2018 à 17:08, Mikel Maron <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mikel.maron@gmail.com></a> a écrit :
The fee waiver is not structured as a reimbursement, but rather as a submitted request to have an exemption to paying the fee.
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Thursday, November 15, 2018, 11:02:44 AM EST, nicolas chavent <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nicolas.chavent@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><nicolas.chavent@gmail.com></a> wrote:
Thanks Mikel and Steve,
It's good to hear that there's a process in place for fee waiver and that mappers submitting a request can be re-imbursed shall their claim has some ground and it's equally good to hear that time extension for registration will be discussed.
Aside of fee waiver for cost additional to Paypal, we may consider to base the yearly 15£ OSMF membership to the cost of living for those of us living in "Developing" or "Least Developed" countries where this amount weight is way more than in the "Developed" world.
Similarly a "social" rate for not rich folks from "Developed" countries could be also discussed.
Outside of a couple of days extension of the deadline for registration as an OSMF member in the position of being eligible for vote at our next Board election, I fear given low internet access and web presence, that this will have a very limited effect for mappers of the "South". Unfortunately, the same goes for non Paypal extra fees only reimbursement mechanism.
Best,
Nicolas
Le jeu. 15 nov. 2018 à 16:31, Mikel Maron <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mikel.maron@gmail.com></a> a écrit :
I think what Simon pointed out is that the OSMF as an organization has legally decided in 2014 that we must accept requests for fee waivers in situations where the fee is an unreasonable burden.
The MWG was charged with coming up with a fee waiver process for this and also for situations where money transfer was impossible. The latter is done, and the former is still ongoing.
My understanding is that a lack of a process doesn't change the situation that the OSMF must act on these requests when we receive them.
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Thursday, November 15, 2018, 10:26:51 AM EST, Steve Friedl <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:steve@unixwiz.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><steve@unixwiz.net></a> wrote:
Unless I misremember all the meetings, the fee waiver, at least in its introductory form, is intended to address money transfer issues only (where there’s no reasonable money transfer facility), not to address needs-based waivers of the type you suggest. In places that don’t have Paypal, or the wire transfer fees would overwhelm the transaction costs: those were the things I believe we had in mind.
My understanding is that sticking with objective tests, rather than subjective assessments, was a safer way to start.
If somebody else on the MWG remembers it differently, I’m happy to be corrected.
Steve
From: nicolas chavent <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nicolas.chavent@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><nicolas.chavent@gmail.com></a>
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 7:05 AM
To: Mikel Maron <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mikel.maron@gmail.com></a>
Cc: OSMF Talk <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] Membership fee waiver
Hi all,
Quickly, if this possibility for active mappers in developing and least developed countries to be eligible for fee waiver and be reimbursed be known up-stream of the election process, a significant amount of mappers (at least from Haiti and Africa) would have joined.
The 15£ yearly contribution being way too much for their level of resources.
Reflecting upon diversity of OSMF membership, now that this info is known when it's no longer possible to sign for membership, can we pause and assess teh relevance/feasibility of shifting teh election process of a week and give time for this information to spread and OSMF to have a more diverse and geographically more widespread membership ? Can this be put as a talk item for the OSMF board meeting ?
Thanks,
Nicolas
Le jeu. 15 nov. 2018 à 15:36, Mikel Maron <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><mikel.maron@gmail.com></a> a écrit :
Very good to note that people can simply apply for a waiver now. The resolution states
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre>In order to be eligible for the membership fee waiver, the applicant may be required to contribute something else of value (e.g: time, …) to the Foundation, for example write a paragraph on mapping in their region
</pre></blockquote><pre>
So if this holds, an interested potential member emails the board (<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:board@osmfoundation.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">board@osmfoundation.org</a>) and MWG (<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mwg@osmfoundation.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">mwg@osmfoundation.org</a>), with the details required for associate membership (name, OSM id, country) and a paragraph describing their need and some details on their contribution to OSM, we'll need to vote on it.
We'll be discussing this in the OSMF Board meeting later today.
On a more systematic solution. I joined the Board a year after the 2014 resolution, and have not seen any requests for a fee waiver in that time (well before this thread started yesterday). I've been a strong proponent of addressing the fee waiver, and Joost's telling is accurate -- there's simply been too little volunteer help available. The Foundation welcomes more -- I think this could be sorted out with a short amount of determined work by just a couple people. Please consider it.
-Mikel
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
On Thursday, November 15, 2018, 1:53:12 AM EST, Simon Poole <a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><simon@poole.ch></a> wrote:
Only the board would know (and I don't remember seeing anything in the minutes).
Simon
Am 14.11.2018 um 23:53 schrieb Rob Nickerson:
Any idea if that has happened yet Simon?
Thank you,
Rob
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 22:20 Simon Poole <<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">simon@poole.ch</a> wrote:
Forgetting all about making it easy and so on, there is currently IMHO no reason a potential member couldn't apply for a waiver, it would simply need to be decided on a case by case base.
Simon
Am 14.11.2018 um 23:08 schrieb joost schouppe:
Hi Rob,
I can't give an account for the first three years, but I can share my perspective about the last. I specifically joined the MWG a year ago to help push forward the waiver fee program.
Over the last year, most of the volunteer time has gone to keeping the engine running. There were deep problems with the management software for membership (civicrm), which made it easy to lose members. There was a weird problem with reminders about lapsing membership. Since we do not have a self service area, people depend on these reminders. It was a hard problem to fix, which involved a lot of cooperation between people, as well as a lot if discussion about whether or not to hire consultancy to fix it; or even to make sure they could actually work if hired.
At all the meetings I attended, I brought up the waiver fee. There always seemed to be new barriers to just start with it. A form, a procedure, default lettres, membership classes. Since the meetings were rather spread out, you also lose time with bringing back to mind all the details. Since a lot of the work required knowledge about the inner workings of the software, there wasn't a lot of work I could do as a not so technical newbie. When there were things I could do myself, my own time constraints came in the way - as well as recently finding out a lot of thinking work we did together was lost because we used an exotic open source tool that disappeared from the internet.
So my analysis if the last year would be: too little volunteers to do the actual work, and a lack of efficient workflows.
IIRC we did get several board checkups on the waiver fee and the occasional call to think bigger.
I don't think there is anyone to blame, except maybe if you start looking for the root causes of our lack of volunteers. Since I don't want to turn this into my position statement for the Board elections, I'll hold that thought for now. I will say that this experience is what led me to try and revive the local chapters group as a community building group. This group would try to work in and with the other working groups to support and push relevant projects forward. Unfortunately that try has not really resulted in much just yet.
All the best,
Joost
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre></blockquote><pre>
</pre></blockquote><br><div class="m_9039231922485007229m_5462290167510234990m_-6508831823634871551m_-7320649742455400194m_-622164274414143838moz-signature">-- <br>
<div>Sent from <a href="https://www.postbox-inc.com/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=siglink&utm_campaign=reach" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(0,157,247)">Postbox</span></a></div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>