<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp540eee3byahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div>> <span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"> but they for sure had not been people being paid to do so</span></span></div><div><br></div><div>Of course not. In 2004, it would have been insane for anyone to consider OSM as anything other than a ludicrous project. Fortunately, a good number of us were crazy enough.</div><div><br></div><div>That some of those same people now have the opportunity and privilege to spend their working hours contributing to improving the OSM project and map is something we can celebrate, rather than sow suspicion on. Likewise, thinking that someone's first encounter with OSM through their job can not lead them to a true and deep passion for the map is a disservice. I'd like to introduce you to several people who can tell their story direct to you.</div><div><br></div><div>> <span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Anyway, you can't base an argument on "trust me, I'm right". </span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">Of course not. Let's talk specific examples.</span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br></span></span></div><div><span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">> <span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">We even almost </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">voted (or some at least considered voting) on a business-friendly v</span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">ersion written by business as "business knows best" (which was an </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;">argument being used).</span></span></span></span></div><div><br></div><div>Not true. No business wrote anything. There was no influence. </div><div><br></div><div>I myself gave a number of specific edits to improve the process steps of the guidelines based on my experiences while fully keeping the community empowered, and to have the document better reflect the intentions from our public Q&A. This was me, not my employer -- which honestly will manage fine however the community works. </div><div><br></div><div>Now Peter didn't read these edits. And he certainly didn't have to read it. But I had every right to discuss it. I did not vote at all on this issue or any part of the process. <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">And I never suggested how we should handle these suggestions -- did not suggest a vote, or sharing publicly, or back with the DWG, or just ignore and move on. </span></span></div><div><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></span></span></div><div><span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Again, we<span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> need to work to resolve misunderstandings like this, so we have the full picture to form the basis of discussion in our community.</span></span></span></span></div><div><br></div><div>-Mikel</div><div><br></div><div class="ydp540eee3bsignature">* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron</div></div>
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On Thursday, December 13, 2018, 2:25:28 PM EST, Peter Barth <osm@won2.de> wrote:
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<div>Hi,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Mikel Maron schrieb:<br clear="none">> > I would prefer OSM to be run by the kind of people who started it: hobby mappers, enthusiasts, map geeks from all walks of life.<br clear="none">> This is not accurate, and a narrative I only began to hear many years later. <br clear="none">> [...]<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I think you're misinterpreting here what Frederik is saying or your<br clear="none">arguments are not actually contradicting him. It was not a Facebook AI,<br clear="none">it was not paid humanitarian workers, it was not outsourced mappers, it<br clear="none">was not the Mapbox editing team that contributed to the initial map.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">What Frederik didn't claim is, that all of those mappers had been<br clear="none">students, jobless persons, or had no interest to some day earn money <br clear="none">with OSM, ... but they for sure had not b<een people being paid to do so.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">> I’ve seen no evidence that business has too much influence in OSMF. [...]<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Well, what is "too much"? But it's good you don't decline that there are<br clear="none">business influences in OSMF.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Anyway, you can't base an argument on "trust me, I'm right". Most of <br clear="none">the board's discussions are kept private, so this is something that <br clear="none">can't be judged by the public.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Second, we only recently had a big fight about the OEG. We even almost<br clear="none">voted (or some at least considered voting) on a business-friendly <br clear="none">version written by business as "business knows best" (which was an <br clear="none">argument being used). In the end we voted on a version of the OEG (and<br clear="none">excepted it) that was based on almost two years of consultation,<br clear="none">compromising,... based on input from the advisory board (majoritarian <br clear="none">businesses at that time afair) and on direct consultation of companies <br clear="none">(and organizations). Given that many hobby/craft mappers prefered the <br clear="none">original first draft of the OEG, and given the big differences between <br clear="none">the two versions regarding content, I'd argue "there is too much <br clear="none">influcence".<br clear="none"><br clear="none">There are many other cases, but your mileage may vary if the influence<br clear="none">is "too much" or "still ok".<div class="yqt5088780786" id="yqtfd11794"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">> Despite Frederik’s business interests, I’ve always assumed his decisions in osmf were made in the interests of OSM. For myself, that is 100% the case.</div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">But that was not even Frederik's point. Even if all your decisions are <br clear="none">based 100% in the interest of OSM, they are still biased by your <br clear="none">perception. There may e.g. be very different reasons why our views on<br clear="none">some topics are so different. But you can't decline the possibility that <br clear="none">it is based on the fact that you're paid for doing some OSM work while <br clear="none">I am not.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Peda<div class="yqt5088780786" id="yqtfd09716"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div></div>
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