<div dir="ltr">Ok, well I'll just chime in here as a mostly lurker to say that I agree with Heather's description. <br><br>I don't think this is a black and white issue, but I do expect the ideal balance between the factors you mention and factors she raises is quite a bit further over towards her side. <br><br>Speaking as <div>a) a GIS developer/consultant who specializes in open source tools </div><div>b) Has gone to several SOTM and found the community there to be robust and inspiring and signed up to be a member </div><div>c) sees the often toxic back and forth here and finds it really discouraging <div><br>Incidentally, I let my membership lapse this year. I feel like many of the people who chime in on these sorts of threads would therefore conclude that my opinion on these matters isn't really worth anything. <br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:54 AM Allan Mustard <<a href="mailto:allan@mustard.net">allan@mustard.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Uh, well, here in
Ashgabat it is getting close to dinner time, actually. But
never mind that.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I don't know that the
OSM lists are one-sided. In my experience so far they have been
rather robust and have reflected a diversity of viewpoints. As
far as interactions being accusatory, when it comes to Global
Logic or any other corporate body that engages in activities
that raise suspicions, then declines to be open and transparent
about them, shifting from merely curious to accusatory is to be
expected. And by the way, I am not a holder of any current
power structure. In the OSM domain I'm just a mapper who, as an
employee of a large government, is naturally suspicious of a
large organization that suddenly (and the excellent and deeply
analytical MWG report is pretty clear on that point) pumps 100
members into a foundation that numbers in the hundreds of
members, and in which elections are decided by fewer than 20
votes. It is reasonable to be suspicious of such an act. Was
the act necessarily nefarious? Of course not. However, the
fact that Global Logic is not responding transparently raises my
suspicions, and it should raise the suspicions of all Board
members, not just of members of the MWG. If Global Logic does
not come clean about its intentions, the OSMF members it
recruited should have their memberships annulled. We mappers
have not worked so hard on this project to see it hijacked, and
yes, I have put <a href="https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?apm-wa" target="_blank">a lot of effort</a>
into this project, in one of the most closed countries on Earth:
over a <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/apm-wa/history#map=7/38.602/57.110" target="_blank">quarter
of a million map changes</a>, over 300,000 <a href="https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/apmwa?lat=39.1108204562548&lng=61.71341838883677&z=5.5095320770791005" target="_blank">ground-level
images</a> on Mapillary, and a <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Turkmenistan" target="_blank">series
of OSM wiki articles</a> on the geography of Turkmenistan so
that all I've learned in the last four years about a closed and
secretive society can be used by other mappers.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Is there an unhealthy
culture of fear to post? I don't know for certain, but I doubt
it. I suspect that the majority of OSMF members simply prefer
to spend their time mapping, creating products from OSM, and
contributing that way, rather than debating this or that policy
in this or another forum. It is the old 80-20 rule. Fear is
not likely a factor, since the downside risk of posting
something other members don't like is a verbal rebuke. "Sticks
and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
It is more likely ambivalence that keeps people from posting.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Putting myself in
others' shoes, would I post? Yes, if I had something to say.
Would I engage in OSMF or go back to map making? I'm doing
both. Last Saturday I collected data in Gokdepe. Next Sunday I
intend to collect a stretch of the P-25 highway between Yoloten
and Bayramaly we have not yet explored. Both activities are
important. If the OSMF blows this call and through inaction
allows Global Logic or any other corporation to take over OSM
for its own purposes, all my mapping work to that point,
intended to benefit a much larger community, will have been for
naught, and they idea that my work will then benefit only Global
Logic will make me rather angry.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">My two manats' worth.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">apm-wa<br>
</font></p></div><div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_4589757926081612415moz-cite-prefix">On 2/5/2019 4:44 PM, Heather Leson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello, Hope you are having lunch or breakfast</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I personally have heard some members say that they
would not post to OSMF mailing lists. The health of this
list (dialogue) is often one-sided. It is culturally
difficult to participate in OSMF governance and mailing
lists if you are: 1. regarding the interactions as
somewhat borderline in range from open questions/amicable
to down right accusatory in the approach 2. your job or
anything else about your behaviour is mentioned 3. you
are not holders of the current power structures (meaning
willing to spend the time to digest, respond and deal with
the countless notes. )</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I mean no disregard for anyone. We all have our styles,
but imagine you are 1 of the other 930 people who don't
post/share - how would you view the tone and culture
norms. On the road to "transparency", the other principles
of community, collaboration, adaptability, and inclusivity
get missed. Again, there is a certain type of person who
can actually spend their lunch responding to these notes
instead of going outside. Add to that the emotional weight
it takes to be 'vulnerable' to the 'sometimes
investigative mode' that OSMF tends lean. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ask yourself the larger question once you put
yourselves in other shoes - would you post? In fact, even
responding today to suggest that maybe, just maybe there
is an unhealthy culture of fear in the styles /approaches,
will be interesting in responses. It seems to me that the
larger problems of community engagement get sidetracked by
all these topics. Meaning - if you read these notes, would
you engage in OSMF or go back to map making or working
around OSM/OSMF to focus on what you can do?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Resources:</div>
<div>what is an open organization - <a href="https://opensource.com/open-organization" target="_blank">https://opensource.com/open-organization</a></div>
<div><a href="https://medium.com/mozilla-open-innovation/reflection-inclusive-organizing-for-open-source-communities-9c44f0b689c1" target="_blank">https://medium.com/mozilla-open-innovation/reflection-inclusive-organizing-for-open-source-communities-9c44f0b689c1</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Time for some air. I hope you go outside too and think
about the unintended consequences of the narratives. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Heather <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_4589757926081612415gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Heather Leson<br>
<a href="mailto:heatherleson@gmail.com" target="_blank">heatherleson@gmail.com</a><br>
Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson <br>
Blog: <a href="http://textontechs.com" target="_blank">textontechs.com</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 1:48 AM
Guillaume Rischard <<a href="mailto:openstreetmap@stereo.lu" target="_blank">openstreetmap@stereo.lu</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Kathleen,<br>
<br>
I don't know if you've read the report, or if we
should have been more concise? :)<br>
<br>
There is indeed no claim or evidence that every
individual employee had bad faith or sinister motives.
They might not even all have known what they were
participating in. This is a matter for the corporate
actors (managers, et al). It's unnecessary to
speculate about what every individual had in mind, and
I think we should focus on what we do know.<br>
<br>
It's easy to imagine employees wanting another line on
a CV - why not? - but the just-so story doesn't match
with the evidence. I'm not sure whether Darafei [1]
was being sarcastic, but I’m certain Nuno is. We've
been over the data with a fine comb, looked eagerly
for innocent explanations. We haven't found even hints
in favour of that hypothesis, and a lot against it.<br>
<br>
GlobalLogic employees have mentioned voting on
[talk-in] (p. 5), and repeatedly to the board and
privately to MWG (p. 20). They have been silent in
public, but we've also been told by insiders and
informed outsiders that they've been told not to talk
(p. 17).<br>
<br>
You say that the individuals have unsubscribed from
osmf-talk, but there is no evidence of this either. On
17 Jan, we checked the two cohorts: there were 2
GlobalLogic subscribers (who are still subscribed)
and 12 French subscribers.<br>
<br>
Why would they not tell us this story instead of a
made-up one? Why repeatedly talk about voting? Why do
it just before the cut-off? Why not a more visible
corporate membership for a third of the price? Why gag
employees? <br>
<br>
We don't know what it was, but this wasn't just
supporting the foundation or personal development.<br>
<br>
Guillaume<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2019-February/005902.html" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2019-February/005902.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 4 Feb 2019, at 20:42, Kathleen Lu via
osmf-talk <<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="m_4589757926081612415gmail-m_2801543414861686543Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>One question, <b>not a single</b>
one of these, recently called <b>100
"humans" expressed concern, doubts
or showed any sign of not being able
to vote</b>? 100, not 10, 100 that
did not express themselves about not
being able to vote. Lets me think that
people in India are very shy indeed.
Lucky we got 900 members and those
"100 humans" were just 1/10 of the
members. We must be doing a great job
at promotion to get new members with
that rush sign up.<br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Wait a minute. If any of the
individuals *had* shown concern about not
being able to vote, wouldn't that have
been taken as evidence that they had been
part of a conspiracy to manipulate the
election? That the individuals didn't
express any concern re the election
suggests support for Darafei's theory:
These individuals agreed to sign up for
OSMF (with their employer facilitating
signup and payment) in a manner similar to
a job-related training or certification. <br>
</div>
<div>(Whether their managers had any more
sinister plans or not is a separate
question, but there's no evidence that the
individuals had any intent to do
anything.)</div>
<div>Then the issue blew up with an
investigation and lots of questions and
speculation, and now they do not want to
say anything for fear of saying something
"wrong" (whether that is by the listserv's
standard or their managers' standard) so
they stay silent, or have unsubscribed.</div>
<div>-Kathleen<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_4589757926081612415mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="m_4589757926081612415moz-quote-pre">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="m_4589757926081612415moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="m_4589757926081612415moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div></div>