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<p>Severin, et al,</p>
<p>English below<br>
</p>
<p>Ceci est une réponse au point 1 du rapport de retour
d'information,
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/apm-wa/diary/392767">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/apm-wa/diary/392767</a>, que je
vous invite à lire. Il ne reste plus que deux administrateurs
système pour l'ensemble du réseau. Nous n'avons pas réussi à
recruter des administrateurs système volontaires supplémentaires.
Il est également nécessaire de travailler sur le logiciel de base
(API, site web) au-delà des contraintes de temps des développeurs
de logiciels volontaires. (Traduit avec <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a>
(version gratuite))</p>
<p>This is in response to Item 1 in the feedback report,
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/apm-wa/diary/392767">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/apm-wa/diary/392767</a>, which I
urge you to read. We are down to two sysadmins for the entire
network. We have been unsuccessful in recruiting additional
volunteer sysadmins. There is also a need to work on the core
software (API, website) beyond the time constraints of volunteer
software developers.<br>
</p>
<p>apm<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/11/2020 10:27 AM, Manfred A.
Reiter wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEsUX0+o=QA6LQy0tdt5hr+JQTPD_WVxZZtwjjdxM6=RQBQQFA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">+1<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Am Mo., 11. Mai 2020 um
15:17 Uhr schrieb severin.menard via osmf-talk <<a
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>English below<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Il y a quatre
ans
[1] le board de l’OSMF, suite à de longues discussions (voir
les
liens dans [1]) lançait le recrutement d’un contrat à temps
partiel dédié spécifiquement en soutien du board concernant
différentes tâches administratives, de communication et
d’organisation. Il demeurait néanmoins des réticences au
sein des
membres actifs de la communauté dans les activités de la
Fondation
de voir s’instaurer un premier cas de travail non bénévole
au
sein de l’OSMF.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Maintenant, le
board
communique sur la volonté de mettre en place un cadre de
contractualisation, sans aucunement indiquer les besoins à
remplir
(seulement ceux que les volontaires n’accompliraient pas) ou
les
postes qui seraient créés, en indiquant quelques cadres et
limites,
parfois très vagues (moins de 20 employés en 5 ans).<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Mais surtout, la
question posée à la communauté n’est plus SI cette approche
est
la bonne, mais COMMENT la mettre en place. Comment un tel
changement
d’approche a-t-il pu survenir en cinq ans ?<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Certes, la seule
expérience jusqu’ici de contractualisation de l’OSMF a donné
entière satisfaction, mais cela tient sans doute autant aux
tâches
spécifiques de la fonction qu’à la personne qui a été
engagée.
Vouloir répliquer cette expérience en changeant cette fois
complètement d’échelle aura nécessairement des
répercussions,
et je rejoins totalement Frederik dans son analyse sur les
dangers
inhérents à faire appel à de nombreux contractuels. Avec ses
fonds
actuels, l’OSMF aurait nettement plus intérêt à assurer sur
le
long terme le fonctionnement mince actuel avant que de
s’engager
sur une augmentation de ses dépenses qui ne fera que
pérenniser un
besoin croissant de fonds, d’autant plus au moment où le
monde va
entrer dans la crise économique la plus profonde et globale
de son
histoire.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Quels sont les
besoins non accomplis par les volontaires et comment
sont-ils
définis ?<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">S’agit-il de
couvrir des besoins essentiels sans aucun temps volontaire
disponible, ou bien ces besoins rejoignent une volonté de
meilleure
efficience ? Vouloir par exemple être capables s’assurer une
continuité de service 24/7 (ou même de quelques heures) va
évidemment au-delà de ce que des volontaires peuvent
assurer, mais
est-ce vraiment ce que la Fondation a besoin de mettre en
place, au
vu des contraintes et conséquences que cela imposerait ?<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">Par ailleurs,
revient comme souvent dans la discussion le mantra de
s’inspirer de
ce que des structures professionnelles mettent en place,
quitte de
risquer d’en modifier son essence. OSM a réussi là où tous
les
acteurs économiques avaient échoué par le passé et échouent
encore aujourd’hui à répliquer. Le mantra devrait au
contraire de
ne PAS chercher à intégrer ce qui pourrait tordre l’essence
même
de ce qu’est OSM.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%">[1] <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2016-April/003712.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2016-April/003712.html</a><br>
</p>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Severin<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>------------------------<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Translated with <a
href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a>
(free version)<br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Four years ago [1] the OSMF board, after long discussions
(see links in [1]) launched the recruitment of a dedicated
part-time contract specifically to support the board in
various administrative, communication and organizational
tasks. Nevertheless, there was still reluctance among active
members of the community in the Foundation's activities to
see a first case of non-volunteer work within the OSMF.<br>
</div>
<div>Now, the board is communicating on the desire to put in
place a contractualization framework, without in any way
indicating the needs to be met (only those that the
volunteers would not fulfil) or the positions that would be
created, indicating a few frameworks and limits, sometimes
very vague (less than 20 employees in 5 years).<br>
</div>
<div>Most importantly, the question asked to the community is
no longer IF this approach is the right one, but HOW to
implement it. How has such a change in approach been
possible in five years?<br>
</div>
<div>Admittedly, the only experience to date of
contractualization of the OSMF has been entirely
satisfactory, but this is no doubt due as much to the
specific tasks of the position as to the person who was
hired. Wanting to replicate this experience, this time by
completely changing scale, will necessarily have
repercussions, and I totally agree with Frederik in his
analysis of the dangers inherent in calling on a large
number of contract workers. With its current funds, the OSMF
would have much more interest in assuring its current slim
operation over the long term before committing itself to an
increase in its expenditures, which will only perpetuate a
growing need for funds, especially at a time when the world
is about to enter the deepest and most global economic
crisis in its history.<br>
</div>
<div>What are the unfulfilled needs of volunteers and how are
they defined?<br>
</div>
<div>Is it a question of covering essential needs without any
volunteer time available, or are these needs linked to a
desire for greater efficiency? For example, wanting to be
able to ensure continuity of service 24/7 (or even for a few
hours) obviously goes beyond what volunteers can provide,
but is this really what the Foundation needs to put in
place, given the constraints and consequences this would
impose?<br>
</div>
<div>Moreover, as often in the discussion, the mantra comes
back to be inspired by what professional structures put in
place, even if it means risking to change its essence. OSM
has succeeded where all economic actors have failed in the
past and are still failing today to respond. On the
contrary, the mantra should NOT seek to integrate what could
twist the very essence of what OSM is.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2016-April/003712.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2016-April/003712.html</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Severin<br>
</div>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0cm;line-height:100%"><br>
</p>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐<br>
</div>
<div> Le samedi 9 mai 2020 20:19, Christopher Beddow <<a
href="mailto:christopher.beddow@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">christopher.beddow@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">I think we should take a deeper look into
how Wikimedia Foundation handles this. They are based in
the US but hire people globally. Having worked remotely as
a US citizen for a Swedish company, it seems fairly clear
to me that it's not a huge hurdle to simple register the
organization in a couple countries for employment purposes
and hire people from around the world without absolute
location requirements. Others may feel very differently
but Wikimedia appears to accomplish this well, as do HOT
and others. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Sat, May 9, 2020, 19:56 Simon Poole <<a
href="mailto:simon@poole.ch" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Am 09.05.2020 um 01:32 schrieb Allan Mustard:<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > Simon,<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > That's one of the questions we want the
community to help us suss<br>
</div>
<div> > out. Direct-hire, contract, or third-party
hire? What does the<br>
</div>
<div> > community suggest?<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Direct-hire is (too?) complex if the employees are
not already there /<br>
</div>
<div> or can be relocated to where ever your place of
business is or can be<br>
</div>
<div> employed by an in country subsidiary. An
additional complicating factor<br>
</div>
<div> is that the OSMF is no longer domiciled in the
EU/in a country with free<br>
</div>
<div> movement with the EU. If it was, direct-hire would
be far far more<br>
</div>
<div> viable as it would be possible to relocate people
at least within the EU<br>
</div>
<div> with near zero red tape. The cynical approach to
this is that the UK is<br>
</div>
<div> going to be a cheap labour country going forward
anyway, so we might as<br>
</div>
<div> well stay there and employ locals.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Contract (assuming full time employment/single
employer) is legally not<br>
</div>
<div> an option in a great number of countries (except
if you want to leave<br>
</div>
<div> the OSMF open to all kind of potential legal
action and costs), and<br>
</div>
<div> essentially boils down to only employing people
from countries with none<br>
</div>
<div> or little employee protection (which do exist
naturally). Not to mention<br>
</div>
<div> that shady employment practices may impact the
OSMFs ability to raise<br>
</div>
<div> the necessary funds to start with.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> I don't have a strong opinion on third-party hire,
this is obviously<br>
</div>
<div> possible, the commercial route might be a bit
expensive, but assuming<br>
</div>
<div> employing via local chapters that already have
staff it might be viable.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> tl;dr version: there are reasons why real
companies are typically not<br>
</div>
<div> totally remote and virtual.<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> Simon<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > apm<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > On 5/8/2020 6:01 PM, Simon Poole wrote:<br>
</div>
<div> > > Tobias<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > > Could you clarify if the board actual
means "employee" when it is using<br>
</div>
<div> > > the term or if the actual intent is to
simply contract work out.<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > > The legal issues with both variants are
rather convoluted, but<br>
</div>
<div> > different.<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > > Simon<br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > > Am 06.05.2020 um 22:24 schrieb Tobias
Knerr:<br>
</div>
<div> > >> Hi all,<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> the OSMF Board wants to think about
a general framework to hire people<br>
</div>
<div> > >> to fill in the gaps that volunteers
can't fill. We believe that, given<br>
</div>
<div> > >> good practices and firm boundaries,
hiring people would be worthwhile.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> It could ensure the continued
stability of the OSM platform (servers,<br>
</div>
<div> > >> integral software) among other
things, and augment the currently<br>
</div>
<div> > >> overworked volunteers and under
resourced efforts in the face of<br>
</div>
<div> > >> continued growth.<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> We would like to gather your input
on strategies to have the highest<br>
</div>
<div> > >> possible positive impact at an
acceptable cost, and with as few<br>
</div>
<div> > negative<br>
</div>
<div> > >> effects as possible.<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> We had a brainstorm about this
during the screen2screen, and these are<br>
</div>
<div> > >> some things we all agree on:<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We strongly prefer not to hire
when there are adequate volunteer<br>
</div>
<div> > >> options. In particular, we are not
going to engage in paid mapping.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We need to define criteria for
when we -can’t- wait for<br>
</div>
<div> > volunteers to<br>
</div>
<div> > >> step up.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We do not want to grow an army of
employees. We do not envision 20<br>
</div>
<div> > >> employees within 5 years, let alone
200!<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We want to make employees
cooperate remotely, and through the same<br>
</div>
<div> > >> platforms that volunteer
contributors to that project also use.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We should make sure all employees
are treated equitably.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * People with an OSM volunteer
background should be preferred (because<br>
</div>
<div> > >> it demonstrates qualifications,
added trustworthiness, and is the right<br>
</div>
<div> > >> thing to do), but we don't agree to
which degree.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We want to avoid paid leadership
or decision-making positions<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * We want people to work for the
community, not for the Board. But we<br>
</div>
<div> > >> also do not want employees to have
10,000 bosses - that's a recipe for<br>
</div>
<div> > >> burnout.<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> Some of the risks we hope the
community can help address include the<br>
</div>
<div> > >> following:<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * Paid work can have a chilling
effect on volunteering.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * Paid staff has other incentives
than volunteers.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * Paid staff has more power to set
direction of the project than a<br>
</div>
<div> > >> volunteer, if only because of the
amount of time they have.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * Paid staff hired from outside the
community may lack an understanding<br>
</div>
<div> > >> and appreciation for the way the
community works.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * A direct link between
organizations providing funding and a job being<br>
</div>
<div> > >> done might give those organizations
undue power.<br>
</div>
<div> > >> * The organization that decides what
gets worked on becomes quite<br>
</div>
<div> > >> powerful, which risks losing the
benefits of do-ocracy.<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> We know there are many issues with
hiring people, but we hope that we<br>
</div>
<div> > >> can install meaningful guardrails
against the risks. Your input will<br>
</div>
<div> > >> help us devise a strategy that makes
sure we define the right jobs and<br>
</div>
<div> > >> hire the right people for them.<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> Feel free to share your ideas here
or send them to<br>
</div>
<div> > <a href="mailto:board@osmfoundation.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">board@osmfoundation.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >> Tobias<br>
</div>
<div> > >> (for the OSMF board)<br>
</div>
<div> > >><br>
</div>
<div> > >>
_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> > >> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> > >> <a
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> > >> <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> > >
_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> > > osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> > > <a
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> > > <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> ><br>
</div>
<div> >
_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> > osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> > <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> > <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> _______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> <a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> <a
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
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<div dir="ltr">## Manfred Reiter - -<br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">## <a
href="http://www.weeklyOSM.eu"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.weeklyOSM.eu</a></div>
<div dir="ltr">## <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EuYoutH_OSM"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EuYoutH_OSM</a></div>
<div dir="ltr">## <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EuYoutH_OSM/Saarburg"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/EuYoutH_OSM/Saarburg</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
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