<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via osmf-talk <<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" class="">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I believe it is as safe as any other channel and abuse is very rare.<br class="">
Try to find 2 examples from this year of non acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s reflect how “toxic” this list really is. From my perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more toxically than all the communications I have seen on various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years. Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is an exception I am not aware of.<br class="">
I do recall two events of unpleasant communication, in both cases I believe that personal discourses from <br class="">
the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the diversity list, the other was a flame against you before the elections I think 2 years ago).<br class="">
<br class=""></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Martin, don't you think it would only increase the toxicity on this list for people to start calling out by name other people that they think are toxic or abusive? And if people already don't feel safe on this list, why in the world would they feel safe publicly calling out others' behaviors? I am not saying this is your intent, but your challenge could serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tell people that they will not be believed, and they will be unlikely to speak up, and then you'll have your "proof" that there is no toxicity.</div><div class="">
<div class="">I will say that at least three people (a mix of genders) have personally told me that they do not participate in/read the talk listserv because of the culture, and this is not exactly something that comes up in every conversation I have about OSM.<br class=""></div>
</div><div class="">We can all have different opinions on what qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would prefer "welcoming" to "not that toxic that often," which is what it sounds like you are describing as the standard for "any other channel." I think that is too low of a bar and that OSM should aim for better.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div>I agree with this viewpoint.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a helpful way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan Gayton’s excellent points on this topic from late last year, on OSM diaries:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><blockquote type="cite" class="">“I have failed to notice any outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge, implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in this, will simply find another place to put their energy where they are not required to endure hostility or prove its existence in the face of skepticism.<br class=""><br class="">It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of, say, a female participant.<br class=""><br class="">Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so is to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.</blockquote></div><div><br class=""></div><div><div>– <a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229" class="">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on open source communities (<a href="https://recommendations.implicit-development.org" class="">https://recommendations.implicit-development.org</a>) repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people who’ve chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy extremophiles content to stick around will not tell enough of the story.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-mike.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></body></html>