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<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Not to pile on, but in
my conversations with local communities, more than a few said
they avoid the talk lists because of the incivility and
rudeness. What constitutes obnoxious behavior varies by
culture, and insensitivity to what another culture considers
rude drives members of that culture away. OSM allows this to
happen at its peril, since OSM strives to be a "map of the
world".</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Or to be more blunt,
what is inoffensive and merely clever, sarcastic repartee to a
western European may be highly offensive to an Asian, African,
or Latin American, who will then bail out and not participate in
that comms channel.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">If you want proof of
that, contact the local communities and ask them yourself.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">cheers,<br>
apm</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/18/2020 3:22 PM, Michal Migurski
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:FCD583DC-2CDA-4C56-815E-EA3A1110B440@teczno.com">
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<div class="">On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via
osmf-talk <<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
I believe it is as safe as any other channel and abuse
is very rare.<br class="">
Try to find 2 examples from this year of non
acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s
reflect how “toxic” this list really is. From my
perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on
OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more
toxically than all the communications I have seen on
various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years.
Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is an
exception I am not aware of.<br class="">
I do recall two events of unpleasant communication, in
both cases I believe that personal discourses from <br
class="">
the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the
diversity list, the other was a flame against you
before the elections I think 2 years ago).<br class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Martin, don't you think it would only
increase the toxicity on this list for people to start
calling out by name other people that they think are
toxic or abusive? And if people already don't feel
safe on this list, why in the world would they feel
safe publicly calling out others' behaviors? I am not
saying this is your intent, but your challenge could
serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tell people that
they will not be believed, and they will be unlikely
to speak up, and then you'll have your "proof" that
there is no toxicity.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">I will say that at least three people (a
mix of genders) have personally told me that they do
not participate in/read the talk listserv because of
the culture, and this is not exactly something that
comes up in every conversation I have about OSM.<br
class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">We can all have different opinions on what
qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would prefer
"welcoming" to "not that toxic that often," which is
what it sounds like you are describing as the standard
for "any other channel." I think that is too low of a
bar and that OSM should aim for better.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div>I agree with this viewpoint.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a helpful
way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan Gayton’s
excellent points on this topic from late last year, on OSM
diaries:</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">“I have failed to notice any
outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an
invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge,
implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person
experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not
imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in this,
will simply find another place to put their energy where they
are not required to endure hostility or prove its existence in
the face of skepticism.<br class="">
<br class="">
It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while
specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of, say,
a female participant.<br class="">
<br class="">
Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people
of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income
countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth
and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so is
to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<div>– <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on
open source communities (<a
href="https://recommendations.implicit-development.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://recommendations.implicit-development.org</a>)
repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a
community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people who’ve
chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy extremophiles
content to stick around will not tell enough of the story.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-mike.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
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