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<div>Part of that is kind of hard to avoid - my knowledge about cultural norms is limited,<br></div><div>but AFAIK <br></div><div><br></div><div>(1) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means "you are stupid, worthless,<br></div><div>and so below my status that I can openly reject your ideas" and to reject<br></div><div>proposal you praise it weakly and not very effectively<br></div><div><br></div><div>(2) in some cultures saying "no" to proposal means that you disagree with a <br></div><div>proposal and praising proposal weakly means that you agree with it and support it<br></div><div><br></div><div>As result discussion where (2) mode dominates will be considered offensive<br></div><div>to people from (1) culture and it is kind of hard to fix that (assuming that such disconnect<br></div><div>actually exists, see initial disclaimer).<br></div><div><br></div><div>I have seen claims describing it as USA vs Germany conflict with USA being closer to (1)<br></div><div>and Germany being closer to (2).<br></div><div><br></div><div>For bonus points people using English as a secondary language struggle with just using<br></div><div>English and will blunder into things that are sadly more offensive than needed <br></div><div>(nowadays very dangerous trap is she/he confusion that is tricky for at least some<br></div><div>people and in unlucky situation innocent mistake may be considered as extremely offensive)<br></div><div><br></div><div>For additional bonus points there is an additional problem of some people <br></div><div>(I have not noticed it here - maliciously exploiting)<br></div><div> "I am not a native speaker, this insults were completely not intended".<br></div><div><br></div><div>Is it about such cultural issues (mismatch between expectations, sometimes unavoidable)?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Is problem about communicating rejection something actually existing? If yes I can dig for<br></div><div>link explaining it a bit more (I want to verify is it misleading before linking it).<br></div><div><br></div><div>Is anyone aware about description of such cultural issues and maybe how to avoid some<br></div><div>traps?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Aug 19, 2020, 02:54 by allan@mustard.net:<br></div><blockquote class="tutanota_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><p><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Not to pile on, but in
my conversations with local communities, more than a few said
they avoid the talk lists because of the incivility and
rudeness. What constitutes obnoxious behavior varies by
culture, and insensitivity to what another culture considers
rude drives members of that culture away. OSM allows this to
happen at its peril, since OSM strives to be a "map of the
world".</span><br></p><p><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Or to be more blunt,
what is inoffensive and merely clever, sarcastic repartee to a
western European may be highly offensive to an Asian, African,
or Latin American, who will then bail out and not participate in
that comms channel.</span><br></p><p><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">If you want proof of
that, contact the local communities and ask them yourself.</span><br></p><p><span class="font" style="font-family:Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">cheers,<br> apm</span></p><div class="">On 8/18/2020 3:22 PM, Michal Migurski
wrote:<br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><blockquote class="" type="cite"><div class="">On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via
osmf-talk <<a class="" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:<br></div><div><br></div><div class=""><div class="" dir="ltr"><div class="" dir="ltr"><br></div><div><br></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=""><div>I believe it is as safe as any other channel and abuse
is very rare.<br></div><div> Try to find 2 examples from this year of non
acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s
reflect how “toxic” this list really is. >From my
perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on
OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more
toxically than all the communications I have seen on
various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years.
Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is an
exception I am not aware of.<br></div><div> I do recall two events of unpleasant communication, in
both cases I believe that personal discourses from <br></div><div> the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the
diversity list, the other was a flame against you
before the elections I think 2 years ago).<br></div><div> <br></div></blockquote><div class=""><br></div><div class="">Martin, don't you think it would only
increase the toxicity on this list for people to start
calling out by name other people that they think are
toxic or abusive? And if people already don't feel
safe on this list, why in the world would they feel
safe publicly calling out others' behaviors? I am not
saying this is your intent, but your challenge could
serve as a self-fulfilling prophecy: Tell people that
they will not be believed, and they will be unlikely
to speak up, and then you'll have your "proof" that
there is no toxicity.<br></div><div class=""><div class="">I will say that at least three people (a
mix of genders) have personally told me that they do
not participate in/read the talk listserv because of
the culture, and this is not exactly something that
comes up in every conversation I have about OSM.<br></div></div><div class="">We can all have different opinions on what
qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would prefer
"welcoming" to "not that toxic that often," which is
what it sounds like you are describing as the standard
for "any other channel." I think that is too low of a
bar and that OSM should aim for better.<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I agree with this viewpoint.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a helpful
way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan Gayton’s
excellent points on this topic from late last year, on OSM
diaries:<br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class="" type="cite"><div>“I have failed to notice any
outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an
invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge,
implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person
experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not
imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in this,
will simply find another place to put their energy where they
are not required to endure hostility or prove its existence in
the face of skepticism.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while
specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of, say,
a female participant.<br></div><div> <br></div><div> Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people
of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income
countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth
and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so is
to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.<br></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div><div>– <a class="" href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229</a><br></div><div class=""><br></div><div class="">A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on
open source communities (<a class="" href="https://recommendations.implicit-development.org" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://recommendations.implicit-development.org</a>)
repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a
community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people who’ve
chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy extremophiles
content to stick around will not tell enough of the story.<br></div><div class=""><br></div><div class="">-mike.<br></div><div class=""><br></div></div><div class=""><br></div><div><br></div><pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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