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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 19.08.2020 um 02:54 schrieb Allan
Mustard:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6507e305-7599-11ba-067d-d30293cfacbd@mustard.net">
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<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Not to pile on, but
in my conversations with local communities, more than a few
said they avoid the talk lists because of the incivility and
rudeness. What constitutes obnoxious behavior varies by
culture, and insensitivity to what another culture considers
rude drives members of that culture away. OSM allows this to
happen at its peril, since OSM strives to be a "map of the
world".</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Or to be more blunt,
what is inoffensive and merely clever, sarcastic repartee to a
western European may be highly offensive to an Asian, African,
or Latin American, who will then bail out and not participate
in that comms channel.</font></p>
</blockquote>
<p>If the goal is zero cultural friction, the path to get there is
going to be zero public debate. <br>
</p>
<p>That is certainly actionable, but will result in even more of the
important discussions moving to back channels and even more power
to those who are skilful in operating them. <br>
</p>
<p>Simon</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6507e305-7599-11ba-067d-d30293cfacbd@mustard.net">
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">If you want proof of
that, contact the local communities and ask them yourself.</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">cheers,<br>
apm</font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/18/2020 3:22 PM, Michal Migurski
wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:FCD583DC-2CDA-4C56-815E-EA3A1110B440@teczno.com">
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<div class="">On Aug 18, 2020, at 11:45 AM, Kathleen Lu via
osmf-talk <<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> I believe it is
as safe as any other channel and abuse is very rare.<br
class="">
Try to find 2 examples from this year of non
acceptable communication, and if you cannot, let’s
reflect how “toxic” this list really is. From my
perception, people spreading the myth of toxicity on
OpenStreetMap mailing lists are behaving more
toxically than all the communications I have seen on
various OpenStreetMap mailing lists in 12 years.
Disclaimer: I am not on talk-us, maybe this list is
an exception I am not aware of.<br class="">
I do recall two events of unpleasant communication,
in both cases I believe that personal discourses
from <br class="">
the real life had moved to the lists (one was on the
diversity list, the other was a flame against you
before the elections I think 2 years ago).<br
class="">
<br class="">
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Martin, don't you think it would only
increase the toxicity on this list for people to
start calling out by name other people that they
think are toxic or abusive? And if people already
don't feel safe on this list, why in the world would
they feel safe publicly calling out others'
behaviors? I am not saying this is your intent, but
your challenge could serve as a self-fulfilling
prophecy: Tell people that they will not be
believed, and they will be unlikely to speak up, and
then you'll have your "proof" that there is no
toxicity.</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">I will say that at least three people
(a mix of genders) have personally told me that
they do not participate in/read the talk listserv
because of the culture, and this is not exactly
something that comes up in every conversation I
have about OSM.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="">We can all have different opinions on
what qualifies as "toxic", but I think that I would
prefer "welcoming" to "not that toxic that often,"
which is what it sounds like you are describing as
the standard for "any other channel." I think that
is too low of a bar and that OSM should aim for
better.</div>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div>I agree with this viewpoint.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Asking people to prove instances of toxicity is not a
helpful way to engage this topic. I’d like to re-surface Ivan
Gayton’s excellent points on this topic from late last year,
on OSM diaries:</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">“I have failed to notice any
outrageous problems” does not come off exactly like an
invitation to share the problems, it’s more of a challenge,
implicitly saying “prove it,” putting the onus on the person
experiencing the hostility to demonstrate that they are not
imagining it. A lot of people, rather than investing in
this, will simply find another place to put their energy
where they are not required to endure hostility or prove its
existence in the face of skepticism.<br class="">
<br class="">
It might be instructive to re-read that mailing list while
specifically keeping in mind the potential experience of,
say, a female participant.<br class="">
<br class="">
Better yet, if you want to discover whether women (or people
of color, or LGTBQ people, or people from low-income
countries, or other folks less represented in global wealth
and power) are experiencing hostility, a good way to do so
is to ask them. As opposed to asking them to prove it.</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>
<div>– <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Heather%20Leson/diary/391598#comment46229</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">A recent Ford & Sloan Foundation report on
open source communities (<a
href="https://recommendations.implicit-development.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://recommendations.implicit-development.org</a>)
repeatedly emphasizes the point that understanding a
community’s dynamic requires active outreach to *people
who’ve chosen to leave*. Looking to just the hardy
extremophiles content to stick around will not tell enough
of the story.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">-mike.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
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