<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>Hi all!<br>
</p>
<p>I'd say it's always better to analyze why previous attempts have
failed. There's potential to learn a lot from that. However, in
this case that might not be the case since they never seem to have
been actively put into use.<br>
However, the tool that keeps being mentioned in this whole thread
is the HDYC from Pascal Neis. If this idea is to be put into
action, I think one of the first things we should be looking at is
this tool. Not just for its data, but also for its effect on OSM
contributors. <br>
</p>
<p>As others have mentioned too, I couldn't read the original post
on Slack so I'm purely going off what I've read here in the
mailing list. Lots of questions come to mind: what is the end goal
here? Is it to keep users active and interested? Is there
currently a problem with users leaving? Why are short-lived
mappers a problem? Who do we even want to target? Do we want to
keep existing users interested, or do we want to attract new
users? Or are we trying to drag new users in after they joined via
other channels? What should these new users contribute? I can go
on like this for a while...<br>
</p>
<p>In UX/Game design we often have clients coming to us asking "I
want to gamify my system because it's fun." Gamification is far
from a catch-all solution to keep users engaged in projects. There
are loads of risks that also have already been mentioned by others
here. That is not to say it's doomed to fail. This brings me back
to HDYC because a badge system would basically be a slightly more
visible and accessible version of this tool. Essentially, the
badges would visualize the data of this tool in a more accessible
way, with the only additional effect being the feeling of reaching
milestones each time you get a new badge.</p>
<p>What we should be looking at first and foremost is if a badge
system or another gamification system will actually achieve the
goal of keeping users more engaged. Now, let's assume that it
does. In that case, we should start looking at how HDYC already
impacts the way people map. For me personally, it keeps me more
engaged and I like seeing the progress and impact I'm having
visualized. This is purely anecdotal of course, so we'd need a
survey to collect similar experiences from other mappers. How many
users even use HDYC on a regular basis? Are they only the ones
that already have a vested interest in the project? Why do they,
or why not? Maybe it has to do with visibility; HDYC - being a
third-party tool - might not be as visible to new users? Would it
be beneficial to integrate this system into the official project
or should we simply leave it to third parties to make tools like
this?</p>
<p>We shouldn't improvise a system like this by just trying out the
first idea that comes to mind. User surveys are really the first
step to take if we want to implement this. Then, the idea to test
some ideas with a small portion of new and existing users would be
a great idea. Then we can start thinking about the direction we'd
want to take this in further. But first, let's figure out what the
end goal is here. Gamifying the project might not be the solution
we need for the real thing we want to achieve, and it would be a
huge miss if we just assumed that it will work.</p>
<p>Cheers, Casper<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2020-10-20 03:24, Naveen Francis
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABrp+inHDDajzbgBx=dZfg93ceJDcoDhx9neBCWaRSsVqyzfWw@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Simon,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There are few things which we us the OSM community have
to put in place. </div>
<div>1. Welcoming tool. - Many of us talked many times,
a couple of countries it is already in place and it is
helping them. </div>
<div>2. Rewards/Awards - Question is it useful ?? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Rewards/Awards have been implemented very well in '
Wikipedia Barnstars', 'Google Local Guides', </div>
<div>I have never heard this argument that Wikipedia Barnstar
is destroying the Wikipedia project. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do we need to analyze why our earlier systems have
failed?</div>
<div>Isn't better to improvise the system?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we sit and say, it has failed previously and it will
always fail, don't try that. It has no good impact.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The community tries different things first they fail and
understand what went wrong and then improvise </div>
<div>Are you saying that previous systems that were in place
were completely useless? <br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Anyway, I am planning to send an OSM postcard and a
couple of stickers to users who have <a
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/naveenpf/diary/394323"
moz-do-not-send="true">completed 1000 edits. </a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div>naveenpf</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at
14:58, Simon Poole <<a href="mailto:simon@poole.ch"
moz-do-not-send="true">simon@poole.ch</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>Am 18.10.2020 um 10:18 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via
osmf-talk:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>As usual with other stopped projects in OSM -
people working on it<br>
</div>
<div>abandoned it due to a lost interest.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>At the danger of stating the obvious, these schemes
have in all failed because they were either not
effective (the wiki badge stuff) or too effective
(essentially any gamification of mapping, including
initial SC btw) and have led to vandalism at larger
scales and trying to suppress that is too much work. <br>
</p>
<p>On a more philosophical note it is best for the project
if we retain mappers because they have a motivation to
contribute, a desire for completeness, participating in
another activity that needs good map data and naturally
simply liking mapping, that is closely linked to map
data quality, not because they are being paid in one way
or the other (absolution is the most popular form, but
money naturally too).<br>
</p>
<p>Simon<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Oct 18, 2020, 07:08 by <a
href="mailto:naveenpf@gmail.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">naveenpf@gmail.com</a>:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px solid
rgb(147,163,184);padding-left:10px;margin-left:5px">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Hello all, <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It would be really nice to have an awards
or badges system inside OSM. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have seen a couple of pages on that in OSM
wiki. (first saw on Mikel's userpage - North
Star !!! )<br>
</div>
<div>Don't know why it stopped ?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,<br>
</div>
<div>naveenpf<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[1] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards</a><br>
</div>
<div>[2] <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Badges"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Badges</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 07:09,
Christopher Beddow <<a
href="mailto:christopher.beddow@gmail.com"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">christopher.beddow@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>I feel like we could take the How Did You
Contribute stats from Pascal Neis and
prototype some badges based on that. <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Anyone could do this, just build
it separately from the OpenStreetMap website,
for now anyway, as a proof of concept.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">The stats are all there to
analyze. Give somebody a badge for being a
local expert inside a city or country, with a
minimum number of changesets. Other badges
based on adding, modifying, or deleting data.
Maybe a Cleanup Specialist if deleting a lot
for example. <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">For bad changesets and edits,
points and a gamification can help. If you get
a flagged changeset, you get a message that
you can fix it with help, and that you can
earn a badge for it like a "Mentee Level 1",
showing you have been approved by other
Mappers for fixing a mistake, but you could
get the same badge for making a series of
perfect edits endorsed by an existing mapper.
Or a bad edit blocks you from getting it, but
you get informed that you can qualify if you
work with somebody to fix the mistake.
Motivational!<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Then badges based on data types:
a road runner who adds a lot of roads, badges
for fixing speed limits, a POI Hound, etc.
Then maybe in apps like street complete or
vespucci you can get recommended to fix or
enrich the nearby map in a way that's tailored
to your specialty. <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I would love to have little
stickers or pins at a state of the map
conference which show the badges I got on OSM,
and I could find other Mappers who have a
strange interest in adding utility poles or
electric car chargers or hiking trails just
like me. You could even have a badge for
contributing to the map on every continent, or
for contributing a minimum number with survey
as a source, with GPS as a source, or a
language badge for adding like 50+ place names
in any particular language like Spanish or
Swahili. <br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You could set all this up
outside OSM but any user could log onto this
site and see what badges they qualify for. As
I aid the data and stats all exist, just time
to categorize them. I'm happy to help think
about this.<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">It would be fun to take some
inspiration from scouting organizations (Boy
Scouts, Girl Scouts etc) for merit badge
scenarios which is separate from a sort of
rank/title, and sketch out what helps a mapper
qualify for these. <br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 19:05
Clifford Snow <<a
href="mailto:clifford@snowandsnow.us"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">clifford@snowandsnow.us</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Oscar,<br>
</div>
<div>I saw your post on Slack and glad to
see you are also posting on a mailing
list. I'd suggest asking on the talk
list, <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk</a>,
to reach more people. The OSMF-Talk
mailing list is for Foundation related
issues. The Foundation is more about
running the servers, licensing, etc. The
Foundation isn't directly involved in day
to day mapping. On the other hand, we are
always looking for more Working Group
volunteers. You can find a list of the
Working Groups at <a rel="noopener
noreferrer"
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups</a>.
If anyone of the groups interests you,
feel free to reach out to them. Each group
has an email that you can contact them for
more information.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,<br>
</div>
<div>Clifford<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 4:51
PM TheAdventurer64 <<a rel="noopener
noreferrer"
href="mailto:little.banana.peel@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">little.banana.peel@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hello everyone,<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>A user and I were talking about
implementing a system for better
mapping, as described here: <br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://osmus.slack.com/archives/C029HV951/p1602968516431900"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://osmus.slack.com/archives/C029HV951/p1602968516431900</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">This addition would have
many benefits, including:<br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>* More mapping. We have tons of
new mappers each day, as well as a
great editor for them. However, many
of these new mappers leave after
just a few edits. Examples: <br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lukastheg03"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/lukastheg03</a><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Th3Roomi3"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Th3Roomi3</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-- <br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>@osm_washington<br>
</div>
<div><a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://www.snowandsnow.us" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.snowandsnow.us</a><br>
</div>
<div>OpenStreetMap: Maps with a
human touch<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div> osmf-talk mailing list<br>
</div>
<div> <a
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
</div>
<div> <a rel="noopener noreferrer"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
osmf-talk mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>