<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p>This seems to have been going around in circles for years now,
      but again: the LC scheme was conceived for well established, self
      sustaining organisations similar in structure to the OSMF, aka
      open membership controlled organisations organized mostly around
      promoting OSM. <br>
    </p>
    <p>As these things go the conditions to become an LC were always
      extremely relaxed, just go and compare to the hoops you need to
      jump through to become similarly associated with the WMF, OSGeo
      and so on.</p>
    <p>In the mean time however it seems as if the OSMF is so desperate
      to get more LCs that there are actually no conditions at all. From
      organisations that can't support themselves,  to such that  don't
      actually seem to be operating any kind of real membership scheme.</p>
    <p> If the organisation applying for LC status doesn't fulfil the
      criteria then there should be no drama around saying no, not to
      belittle the group in question but because the OSMF - LC
      relationship bestows certain rights and obligations on the LCs
      that just don't make sense if they don't and can't fit that
      specific model. The OSMF-LC relationship is essentially for life,
      particularly after the recent contract changes, and it is likely a
      good idea to be a bit picky about ones spouse in such
      circumstances.<br>
    </p>
    <p>On the other hand, from day zero, it was always clear that there
      might be less involved relationships with other kinds of groups,
      be they less formal ad hoc user groups, thematic of a different
      nature and so on, explicitly because it is clear that the world is
      a large and diverse place and a one size fit all rule is not going
      to work everywhere, in particular not for nascent communities and
      third world countries. <br>
    </p>
    <p>The OSMF hasn't laid out the rules and formalities for such
      relationships, but instead of discussing yet another application
      that doesn't really fit, maybe it would be a better use of time
      for the board to task the LCCWG with coming up with solutions for
      the handful of situations that are common. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Simon<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 05.12.2020 um 16:39 schrieb Heather
      Leson:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHjf0TL0TAyqG86KUTQG7-DB_Wceoodv0c9Nb2-8_41-WVKNeQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">Thank you, Mikel.
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">I am sure there is a middle way. The team has
          been instrumental, as Janet said. Understanding there are
          different types of chapters is key. </div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Heather</div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Heather </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 5 Dec 2020, 13:38
          Mikel Maron, <<a href="mailto:mikel.maron@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">mikel.maron@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            Janet, Heather
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>No one doubts their personal dedication. Simply, the
              structure and communication about map Uganda is unusual
              for local chapters. Yes that is related to differences in
              different parts of the world, and that’s totally fine. We
              are learning. What would help me is some basic details
              about governance like minutes, and OSM activities. This
              might take a little more time, but not a lot. Willing to
              help figure this out.<br>
              <br>
              We’re all learning as we go, including the osmf. I’ve
              already taken away that we should have a few more standard
              questions up front to get a clear picture of the chapter,
              and should share summary of board deliberation during
              community discussion. I’m also happy to see so much energy
              in the LCCWG, and interested to see what new models of
              chapters and association develop.</div>
            <div><br>
              Mikel<br>
              <p
                style="font-size:15px;color:#715ffa;padding-top:15px;margin-top:0">On
                Thursday, December 3, 2020, 5:13 AM, Janet Chapman <<a
                  href="mailto:j.chapman@tanzdevtrust.org"
                  target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">j.chapman@tanzdevtrust.org</a>>
                wrote:</p>
              <blockquote>
                <div id="m_-8024571936316144612yiv8462052214">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Thank
                          you Heather, I totally agree.. And thank you
                          for your comments Joost.</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Douglas
                          and Geoffrey have done so much to build the
                          OSM community throughout Africa and I don’t
                          feel they have always been given sufficient
                          recognition for that by some at OSMF.</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
                          also feel that if we want to be a true global
                          community, we need to ensure we are
                          sufficiently cognisant of the different
                          challenges faced in areas outside Europe and
                          North America..</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Many
                          other prospective local chapters will be
                          watching this discussion with interest, and I
                          fear in some cases, dismay..
                        </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">So
                          I reiterate I strongly support OSM Uganda’s
                          applications.</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Best
                          wishes</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Janet
                        </span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Crowd2Map
                          Tanzania</span></p>
                      <p><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1f497d">
                           </span></p>
                      <div
                        id="m_-8024571936316144612yiv8462052214yqtfd89718">
                        <p><b><span
                              style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif"
                              lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif"
                            lang="EN-US"> Heather Leson [mailto:<a
                              href="mailto:heatherleson@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">heatherleson@gmail.com</a>]
                            <br clear="none">
                            <b>Sent:</b> 03 December 2020 10:00<br
                              clear="none">
                            <b>To:</b> Douglas Ssebaggala <<a
                              href="mailto:erunayo@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">erunayo@gmail.com</a>><br
                              clear="none">
                            <b>Cc:</b> OSMF Talk <<a
                              href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>><br
                              clear="none">
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Osmf-talk] OSM Uganda
                            Local Chapter application</span></p>
                        <p>  </p>
                        <div>
                          <p>Dears </p>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Thank you again for this discussion</p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>To the MapUganda and OSM Uganda teams:
                              keep on answering. You've been trying to
                              be a local chapter for so long. Navigating
                              governance in your country and osmf does
                              take time. </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>To Joost : thank you for all this
                              transparency and effort.</p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>I appreciate that OSMF is changing. But I
                              find it so hard to read some of the
                              underlaying questions. What if OSMF
                              actually made it easier for local chapters
                              and communities to participate more
                              formally in the project? </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>If we want to support a global project,
                              there is no cookie cutter way. Some of the
                              questioning could be miscontrued as
                              considering a local community as
                              determental to the project. Now I know
                              none of you mean that. But consider the
                              approaches.</p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Imagine trying to engage in osmf with
                              this whole exercise as an example. Thanks
                              to those who called Douglas and Geoffrey. </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Good luck. I know that there is a middle
                              ground.someday. </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Heather </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>  </p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p>Heather </p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p>  </p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p>On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, 21:21 Douglas
                              Ssebaggala, <<a rel="nofollow
                                noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                href="mailto:erunayo@gmail.com"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">erunayo@gmail.com</a>>
                              wrote:</p>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote
                            style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
                            1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                            6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p>Hi Joost,</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p>  </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p>Am sure there has been useful and
                                  almost enough discussion on this
                                  thread, am totally fine if the
                                  discussion can continue for a few more
                                  days, but i would like to make some
                                  final comments or clarifications.</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <ol type="1" start="1">
                                  <li>
                                    "Unfortunately, he doesn't provide
                                    the context for us to understand why
                                    it is of such value."</li>
                                </ol>
                                <ol type="1" start="1">
                                  <ul type="circle">
                                    <li>
                                      <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                        shape="rect"
href="http://parliamentwatch.ug/question/on-governments-plans-revise-the-minimum-educational-requirement-for-an-mp/"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Thank you
                                        for the research</a> into the
                                      value of having a minimum
                                      requirement, i had provided a
                                      rationale for why it was needed,
                                      and did not want to flood the list
                                      so i shared direct links.</li>
                                    <li>
                                      As the Founder of OSM Uganda, i
                                      was involved 90% in drafting the
                                      constitution, so i can provide
                                      context to most of the objectives
                                      to the creation of MapUganda for
                                      example, working with the OSMF
                                      is implicitly mentioned in <a
                                        rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                        shape="rect"
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/2/2f/OSM_Uganda-Constitution_2020.pdf"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Article 3
                                        objective 8</a> and is <a
                                        rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                        shape="rect"
href="https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Local_Chapters/Applications/Uganda#Other_information"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        already happening</a> with OSM
                                      Africa, and other partners.</li>
                                    <li>
                                      The current OSM Uganda board has
                                      some of the <a rel="nofollow
                                        noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                        href="http://mapuganda.org/history.html"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        co-founders</a>, and other very
                                      brilliant <a rel="nofollow
                                        noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                        href="http://mapuganda.org/board.html"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        board</a> members who are
                                      steering the organisation, but
                                      it's a learning process (as with
                                      all of us), and guidance might
                                      always be needed, for example on
                                      another change i have just noticed
                                      on <i>ARTICLE 9: Qualification of
                                        members
                                      </i>to have a board member of <i>at
                                        least of 16 years of age </i><b>yet</b>
                                      in Uganda, and most African
                                      countries, the
                                      <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                        shape="rect"
                                        href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority#Age_18"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">age of
                                        maturity</a> is 18 years,
                                      although am a strong advocate for
                                      Youths, this is something that
                                      would be questionable.</li>
                                  </ul>
                                </ol>
                                <ol type="1" start="2">
                                  <li>
                                    As Mikel mentions, he has done
                                    tremendous support to OSM
                                    communities in the (East African)
                                    region for the last 10 years. It
                                    would be good for OSM Uganda to
                                    scale from a small NGO, rather than
                                    being degraded to a small NGO</li>
                                </ol>
                                <ol type="1" start="2">
                                  <ul type="circle">
                                    <li>
                                      The other operational questions
                                      will be answered by the OSM Uganda
                                      board (in an organised way, as
                                      they had already done): Good
                                      enough Joost has set up a meeting
                                      about this with the OSM Uganda
                                      Board (i had to jump in to clarify
                                      Foundational principles for why
                                      OSM Uganda was created).</li>
                                    <li>
                                      From 2019, I have been mainly a
                                      volunteer on Wikimedia projects,
                                      but also occasionally following
                                      OSM activities, and this
                                      discussion will be good at a point
                                      when OSM Uganda is drafting
                                      possible collaboration with the
                                      Wikimedia Community Usergroup in
                                      Uganda (<a rel="nofollow
                                        noreferrer" shape="rect"
href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Uganda/Partnership_with_OpenStreetMap_Uganda"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">Comments
                                        welcome</a> on the meta/wiki
                                      page).</li>
                                    <li>
                                      Am sharing this because I know
                                      there might be some people on or
                                      off this list involved with these
                                      two communities e.g in Italy, or
                                      in the
                                      <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                        shape="rect"
href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2018-20/Transition/Global_Conversations"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        upcoming conversations</a> (feel
                                      free to check out the link) on how
                                      such communities can coordinate
                                      similar efforts in the future.</li>
                                    <li>
                                      There was already a similar talk
                                      about this at <a rel="nofollow
                                        noreferrer" shape="rect"
href="https://wikimedia.se/2019/11/26/humanitarian-openstreetmap-crowdsourcad-oppna-data-ger-underlag-for-battre-beslut/#english"
                                        target="_blank"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        Wikimania</a> last year.</li>
                                  </ul>
                                </ol>
                                <ol type="1" start="3">
                                  <li>
                                    Since these are my final comments, I
                                    am available if anyone would like to
                                    reach out directly, thank you for
                                    listening, and all the reviews to
                                    this thread. </li>
                                </ol>
                                <ol type="1" start="3">
                                  <ul type="circle">
                                    <li>
                                      Apologies to anyone who might have
                                      been offended by any of the
                                      comments in the process, and I
                                      hope the discussion has been
                                      insightful. </li>
                                  </ul>
                                </ol>
                                <p>A great week, and new year to
                                  everyone, keep safe, and wishing you
                                  good health amidst the COVID-19
                                  pandemic.</p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p>  </p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p>Regards,   </p>
                              </div>
                              <p><br clear="all">
                              </p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div>
                                            <div>
                                              <div>
                                                <div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div>
                                                      <div>
                                                        <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p><b><i><span
style="font-size:7.5pt"><a rel="nofollow noreferrer" shape="rect"
href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Uganda"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">Wikimedian in Uganda</a></span></i></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <p><b><i><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">Ssebaggala Douglas | Skype: douglo.m | Twitter<span
style="color:#888888">:</span></span></i></b><b><span
                                                          style="font-size:7.5pt;color:#888888"> </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#1155cc"><a
                                                          rel="nofollow
                                                          noreferrer"
                                                          shape="rect"
                                                          href="https://twitter.com/douglaseru"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><b><span style="color:#1155cc">@douglaseru</span></b></a><b> </b></span>|
                                                          <b><i><span
                                                          style="font-size:10.0pt">Mob
                                                          - Uganda: <a
                                                          dir="ltr"
                                                          href="tel:+256%20772%20422524"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">+256 772 422524</a></span></i></b></p>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <p>  </p>
                            </div>
                            <p>  </p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p>On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 2:56 PM Joost
                                  Schouppe <<a rel="nofollow
                                    noreferrer" shape="rect"
                                    href="mailto:joost@osmfoundation.org"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">joost@osmfoundation.org</a>>
                                  wrote:</p>
                              </div>
                              <blockquote
                                style="border:none;border-left:solid
                                #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                                6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                                <div>
                                  <p>Hi,<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    One of the key questions that comes
                                    up seems to be: "Is OSM Uganda a
                                    money-making endeavour using
                                    OpenStreetMap, or an OpenStreetMap
                                    endeavour that has found a business
                                    model fit for purpose?"<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    Craig points in the direction of the
                                    first, which Frederik turns into: <br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    "You see no issues with granting
                                    local chapter status to a commercial
                                    organisation with the main chartered
                                    purpose of providing paid
                                    services?".
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    I think that's a bit of an
                                    overstatement, as the quotes Craig
                                    posted are "merely" about sources of
                                    income, whereas the "main chartered
                                    purposes" are in Article 3 and
                                    especially Article 4, and tell a
                                    story that must sound much more
                                    familiar to Frederik's ears. Article
                                    4 has the mission statement of:  
                                    "To have a vibrant OpenStreetMap
                                    community in Uganda, which is
                                    united, organised and growing to
                                    assist, and get involved in National
                                    and global development goals.". I
                                    would say that means you have to
                                    read everything in Article 3 in the
                                    context of that mission, and
                                    everything in article 19 FINANCIAL
                                    PROVISIONS as in support of that
                                    mission.<br clear="none">
                                    Geoffrey himself says they "have
                                    been a community since 2011, and we
                                    got registered in 2017 as a local
                                    non-profit organization in Uganda,
                                    run by the OpenStreetMap community
                                    in Uganda."<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    I intend to have a call with OSM
                                    Uganda about some of these issues.
                                    As well as Craig's comments, I think
                                    Christoph also has a few points that
                                    need clarification:
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    - confusion between OpenStreetMap
                                    Uganda and MapUganda, and how they
                                    presenta themselves at the mapuganda
                                    website<br clear="none">
                                    - lack of data about "pure OSM
                                    activities" (also asked by Mikel)<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    - membership fee (also requested by
                                    Mikel): I can already say that they
                                    mentioned in a chat that they are
                                    considering running a sort of
                                    "active contributor membership"
                                    program themselves. Should be
                                    carefully done though, as their
                                    bylaws have quite high quorum rules<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    More interesting questions from
                                    Mikel:<br clear="none">
                                    * How many members are there of OSM
                                    Uganda?<br clear="none">
                                    That's an easy one, that info should
                                    always be on our wiki: Member count
                                    189 as of November 2020 (102 male
                                    and 87 female)
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    * Is there some allowance for people
                                    who can't afford the membership fee?<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    * Are there any public minutes of
                                    the Board?<br clear="none">
                                    * Are there any public minutes of
                                    any meetings of the members? What
                                    have they decided on?<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    I do have some thoughts on this
                                    discussion. Maybe I am overstating
                                    things, but it feels like some
                                    people would like Local Chapters to
                                    be almost a carbon copy of the OSMF.
                                    I personally think OSMF should
                                    reflect the norms of the various
                                    communities around the world, and
                                    should make space for people with
                                    other norms. In that process, both
                                    the local groups and the OSMF itself
                                    can and should change. I think some
                                    of Craig's suggestions should
                                    definitely be considered by OSM
                                    Uganda, while others seem like
                                    unneccesary meddling to me (if
                                    people like their titles, who are we
                                    to judge - why should an LC have to
                                    assume zero paid employees?). I
                                    don't think we should meddle too
                                    much in this, but -if- the OSMF
                                    wants to regulate how exactly the
                                    Local Chapters can provide
                                    themselves with income, then that
                                    should be part of an explicit
                                    policy.<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    On the education requierement: this
                                    does sound weird to most of us here,
                                    I suppose. It smells like exclusion:
                                    "you need to be of background X to
                                    matter". But stuff like this should
                                    raise questions, not lead to
                                    conclusions. A quick websearch
                                    turned up both a Ugandan blog post
                                    arguing against the idea, as well as
                                    this bit from the "Commission of
                                    Inquiry to review the provisions of
                                    the 1995 Constitution":<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    "the commission reported that the
                                    majority of Ugandans supported a
                                    minimum academic qualification, the
                                    reasons being: a representative at
                                    this level must be able to
                                    communicate in the official
                                    language, which is english; a member
                                    of parliament is qualified to be a
                                    minister; she/he should be
                                    reasonably educated to represent the
                                    country in international fora; there
                                    are many Ugandans with university
                                    degrees from which the electorate
                                    can choose; a ‘level secondary
                                    education is a reasonable minimum
                                    because many who have achieved it
                                    can reasonably express themselves.
                                    The majority view was that a’ level
                                    should be maintained as the minimum
                                    academic qualification."<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                      shape="rect"
href="http://parliamentwatch.ug/question/on-governments-plans-revise-the-minimum-educational-requirement-for-an-mp/"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">http://parliamentwatch.ug/question/on-governments-plans-revise-the-minimum-educational-requirement-for-an-mp/</a><br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    While this just scratches the
                                    surface (I did not dig deep enough
                                    to be able to value this source) and
                                    is certainly not meant as an
                                    endorsement, it does go to show that
                                    it's a common idea. When chatting
                                    with Geoffrey about this, I didn't
                                    leave with the impression that this
                                    wording was "accidental" in the same
                                    way that Rory has. At most perhaps
                                    "default thinking". We made it clear
                                    that while we understand some of the
                                    reasoning behind the idea, it is too
                                    much of a potential conflict with
                                    our ideas about equal opportunity to
                                    remain. From his e-mail's it is
                                    clear that Douglas Ssebaggala still
                                    supports the scrapped policy.
                                    Unfortunately, he doesn't provide
                                    the context for us to understand why
                                    it is of such value. While I don't
                                    think the discussion here is very
                                    productive, I think it's a good sign
                                    that the group made a majority
                                    decision but that someone from the
                                    minotiy does speak out about the
                                    topic.<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    On process: <br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    I think the whole process does need
                                    an overhaul. In my year as
                                    Secretary, I have focused more on
                                    clearing the backlog, than on
                                    process. The good thing is that the
                                    next Secretary will now have the
                                    luxury to think process matters
                                    through more fully. The whole matter
                                    of who to consult when, and what
                                    stage comes before what keeps coming
                                    back. For me, the part before the
                                    consultations start, is about data
                                    collection and spotting any obvious
                                    issues. If we can address them, we
                                    do. Since the OSMF-talk mailing list
                                    can feel like a pack of wolves to
                                    the un-iniciated, I also see it as a
                                    chance to help avoid some of the
                                    turmoil that can occur here. Alas,
                                    imperfect human, imperfect results.
                                    Should we share embarrasing mistakes
                                    with this list? In light of
                                    transparency, sure. I personally
                                    think not all mistakes should be
                                    public - I want local groups to
                                    -want- to be a Local Chapter, and
                                    not be afraid of this part of the
                                    process. We did give it a try to do
                                    OSMF consultation through the wiki,
                                    by putting the application on the
                                    main wiki and inviting comments
                                    there. But that didn't really seem
                                    to work.<br clear="none">
                                    Who should do "the legal review"?
                                    For the period that I was involved
                                    in Board work, the entire process
                                    was always lead by the Secretary.
                                    The community consulations are used
                                    because the Board are few humans,
                                    and these other groups are many
                                    humans. Time and time again, it
                                    turns out that that helps spot
                                    mistakes and improve proposals.<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    I also notice a pattern where some
                                    ideas are presented as obvious, but
                                    are not outlined in policy. In this
                                    thread for example: "only
                                    well-established groups should
                                    apply". I guess this was part of the
                                    discussion when the Local Chapters
                                    were first envisioned, but I'm not
                                    aware of a rule on this. Such a
                                    rule, if needed, should be quite
                                    lenient, IMHO. I know at least two
                                    groups where half of the motivation
                                    to form an official group was that
                                    they could then become an offficial
                                    Local Chapter. Telling people "sure,
                                    you make a formal organization that
                                    fits the OSMF is great; but you'll
                                    still have to wait several years to
                                    get the seal of approval" would take
                                    the wind out of the sails of people
                                    working on formalizing things. Or is
                                    about year between official founding
                                    and formal recognition enough to be
                                    "well-established"?<br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    Finally, a bit directed at Simon.<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    > quote:<br clear="none">
                                    <i>In the past the community review
                                      period was directed at the -local-<br
                                        clear="none">
                                      community so that it could be
                                      gauged if they were happy with
                                      being<br clear="none">
                                      represented by the group running
                                      the proposed LC, not an ersatz
                                      legal<br clear="none">
                                      review and LC criteria check
                                      (naturally that should be done by
                                      the<br clear="none">
                                      LCCWG  instead of providing the
                                      board with more opportunity to
                                      moan<br clear="none">
                                      about too much work, but that
                                      particular non-starter has already
                                      been<br clear="none">
                                      discussed).</i><br clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    As I said just above, the OSMF
                                    consultation does prove useful in
                                    this way. I suppose Simon knows
                                    this, but for those still reading:
                                    there is always a local as well as
                                    an OSMF consultation. In most cases
                                    these run at the same time, though
                                    for OsGeo Oceania we did a more
                                    extensive and active outreach over a
                                    slightly longer period.<br
                                      clear="none">
                                    <br clear="none">
                                    Why is it "naturally" the LCCWG? If
                                    it were a strictly legal matter (it
                                    is not IMHO, since the policy is so
                                    vague, couldn't it just as well be
                                    LWG? Can't working groups decide on
                                    their own remit?  I thought we made
                                    it clear that we did ask them
                                    before, and they said no. It's not
                                    that the Board wants to keep this
                                    job, so as to have an excuse to moan
                                    about workload. I find the first
                                    statement rather arrogant, and the
                                    second quite disrespectful. If your
                                    intent is to demotivate volunteers,
                                    keep it up!</p>
                                  <div>
                                    <p>Yes, being on the Board brings
                                      about a workload that can be
                                      pretty exhausting (though for most
                                      of us not so much because of the
                                      amount of actual work, but rather
                                      the energy required). And of
                                      course, we could just sit back and
                                      only do the bare minimum. We've
                                      chosen to do what we think is
                                      necessary, which will hopefully
                                      pay off in a more vibrant
                                      community taking a load of our
                                      shoulders. For the time being
                                      though, things can be tough. For
                                      one thing, I do hope the Board can
                                      keep being the friendly place it
                                      has become in the last year. There
                                      are still very fundamental
                                      disagreements, that are making
                                      this harder recently. But it is
                                      only by being a place that is nice
                                      to work in, that you can attract
                                      more help. In the LCCWG, we did
                                      see this happen: we've been
                                      building momentum over the past
                                      year, working on a limited number
                                      of projects. The Local Chapters
                                      Congress attracted people from
                                      around the world - around this
                                      time, we attracted five new
                                      members. So we must be doing
                                      something right. One thing we
                                      actively avoided is meeting any
                                      new idea with snarky sarcasm. I
                                      think that does help.</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p>  </p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p>Best,</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p>Joost</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <p>OSMF Board secretary</p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p>_______________________________________________<br
                                    clear="none">
                                  osmf-talk mailing list<br clear="none">
                                  <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                    shape="rect"
                                    href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br
                                    clear="none">
                                  <a rel="nofollow noreferrer"
                                    shape="rect"
                                    href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a></p>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <p>_______________________________________________<br
                                clear="none">
                              osmf-talk mailing list<br clear="none">
                              <a rel="nofollow noreferrer" shape="rect"
href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org" target="_blank"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br
                                clear="none">
                              <a rel="nofollow noreferrer" shape="rect"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
                                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a></p>
                          </blockquote>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div
                      id="m_-8024571936316144612yiv8462052214yqtfd62654">
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div id="m_-8024571936316144612yqtfd53835">_______________________________________________<br
                    clear="none">
                  osmf-talk mailing list<br clear="none">
                  <a shape="rect"
                    href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org"
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a><br
                    clear="none">
                  <a shape="rect"
                    href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk"
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a><br
                    clear="none">
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
osmf-talk mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>