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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=DE-AT link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>On Di. 21.09.2021 00:00 Andy Townsend ajt1047@gmail.com wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>>One of those was (and I hope you don't mind me quoting here) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> "For years, the iD editor made a trail of devastation through relations. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> Splitting paths that are part of relations destroys the order of <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> relation members and thus also an essential piece of information"<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>(1) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Is it of any use to say afterwards "Yes, I do mind"? I find it problematic to quote from a non-public document because the context of the quote remains unknown to the reader. </span><span style='color:#1F497D'>This makes misunderstandings possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> The reasons were that (a) hyperbole is rarely an indicator of issue importance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>(2) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Agreement. However, my strong words are meant as an introduction. The detailed description of the problem and its effects are documented in the issues listed afterwards. It was important to me not only to cite my own issue, but also the issues of other mappers. The different perspectives objectify the issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> The reasons were that (a) … and (b) relationship member order isn't considered <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> important by everyone. Some people do like to sort relations, true, …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>(3) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>It is not a matter of preference. Damaged relations lose functionality. Examples:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>* in cycling routes the calculated length is no longer correct<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>* in walking routes the calculated altitude gain are no longer correct<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>* in node networks (especially with distributed nodes) the routing no longer works<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>* …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> More generally, speaking as someone who keeps an eye on the status <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> of a large number of area features and route relations in GB and Ireland <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> (see here and here) I simply don't see breakage by iD users out of proportion <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> to the percentage of changesets that are by iD<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>(4)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>I primarily map cycling routes and sometimes also hiking routes. My preferences are routes that cannot be found on the web. I don't keep statistics, but my feeling is that none of my routes survive 1 year undamaged. Fixing routes is a constant base load. I don't repair bus routes anymore, it's a pointless waste of energy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Some routes are quickly repaired. An automatic sort is all that is needed. I'm not sure if these cases are in the majority. At least a significant proportion need manual effort. Routes with damaged order in loops cannot be sorted automatically (at least JOSM currently cannot). Every one-way creates a loop, so cycle routes without loops tend to be exceptions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>If automatic sorting finally succeeds, the search for the first element begins for round courses (the issue also loses this). All routes that connect to other routes - such as in node networks - rely on the correct first or last element.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Much of what I do manually could also be done by an intelligent SW. But what use is that if it does not (yet) exist? Some things the software will never be able to do. How should the SW know that the signposts do not define an 8 but a constricted O with a touch in the middle? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Sometimes I go into the damaged relations and try to understand how it happened. I don't keep statistics on the causes of errors, but my impression is that it is very often the iD-Editor that goes wrong.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>In short: I am far from being rarely affected by this issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>> … and there's been a significant amount of discussion on those issues (such as here).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>5)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>3 years is a long time. I wonder how the priority of data integrity compares to other points. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>See <a href="https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/develop/CHANGELOG.md"><span style='color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none'>https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/develop/CHANGELOG.md</span></a> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Finally, I don't want to blame anyone, but I want to point out a weak point that is harming our project.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Best Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>Robert (robhubi)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'>===== Translated with <a href="http://www.DeepL.com/Translator">www.DeepL.com/Translator</a> =====<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(1)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> Nützt es etwas nachträglich zu sagen „Ja, es macht mir etwas aus“? Ich finde es problematisch aus einem nicht-öffentlichen Dokument zu zitieren, weil der Kontext des Zitates dem Leser unbekannt bleibt. Dadurch sind Missverständnisse möglich.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(2) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Zustimmung. Allerdings sind meine starken Worte als Einleitung gemeint. Detaillierte Problembeschreibung und dessen Auswirkungen sind in den danach angeführten Issues dokumentiert. Mir war wichtig, nicht nur meinen eigenen Issue zu zitieren, sondern auch die Issues anderer Mapper. Die verschiedenen Blickwinkel objektivieren den Sachverhalt.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(3) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Es ist keine Frage von Vorlieben. Beschädigte Relationen verlieren an Funktionalität. Beispiele:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>* in Radrouten stimmt die berechnete Länge nicht mehr<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>* in Wanderrouten stimmen die berechneten Höhenmeter nicht mehr<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>* in Knotenpunktnetzwerken (besonders bei verteilten Knoten) funktioniert das Routing nicht mehr<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>* …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(4)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Ich mappe primär Radrouten und manches Mal auch Wanderouten. Meine Vorlieben sind Routen, die im Web gar nicht auffindbar sind. Ich führe keine Statistik, aber mein Gefühl ist, keine meiner Routen überlebt 1 Jahr unbeschädigt. Routen zu reparieren ist eine konstante Grundlast. Busrouten repariere ich nicht mehr, es ist eine sinnlose Vergeudung von Energie.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Manche Routen sind schnell repariert. Eine automatische Sortierung reicht. Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob diese Fälle in der Mehrzahl sind. Zumindest ein erheblicher Anteil braucht Handarbeit. Routen mit beschädigter Reihenfolge in Schleifen können nicht automatisch sortiert werden (zumindest JOSM kann es aktuell nicht). Jede Einbahn erzeugt eine Schleife, daher sind Radrouten ohne Schleifen eher Ausnahmen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Gelingt dann endlich die automatische Sortierung, beginnt bei Rundkursen die Suche nach dem ersten Element (auch die verliert der Issue). Alle Routen, die Anschluss zu anderen Routen haben – wie z.B. in Knotenpunktnetzwerken – sind auf das richtige erste bzw. letzte Element angewiesen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Vieles von dem was ich manuell mache, könnte auch eine intelligente SW machen. Aber was nützt das, wenn es diese (noch) nicht gibt? Manches wird die SW auch nie können. Woher soll die SW wissen, dass die Wegweiser keine 8 definieren sondern ein eingeschnürtes O mit Berührung in der Mitte? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Manches Mal gehe ich den beschädigten Relationen nach und versuche zu verstehen wie es dazu kam. Ich führe keine Statistik über die Fehlerursachen, aber mein Eindruck ist, es patzt sehr oft der iD-Editor.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Kurz zusammengefasst: ich bin weit davon entfernt nur selten von diesem Issue betroffen zu sein.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>(5)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>3 Jahre sind eine lange Zeit. Ich frage mich, wie die Priorität von Datenintegrität in Vergleich zu anderen Punkten steht. Siehe https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/blob/develop/CHANGELOG.md <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Zum Schluss: ich werfe niemanden etwas vor, ich möchte vielmehr die Aufmerksamkeit auf einen wunden Punkt richten, der unser Projekt schadet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Beste Grüße<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Robert (robhubi)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>