<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
Le 20/10/2022 à 15:57, grin via osmf-talk -
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a> a écrit :<br>
> For example there is no key for Hungarian cukrászda, which is
not confetery, but the key used for such objects. Shall I create a
new key? Maybe I should.<br>
<br>
If <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Az_orsz%C3%A1g_tort%C3%A1ja">https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Az_orsz%C3%A1g_tort%C3%A1ja</a> is the
correct page for that, then I would suggest shop=pastry<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpastry">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dpastry</a> sounds to be a
better choice to me. I must admit I've never even Hungarian
cukrászda and make a hint, just a hint.<br>
<br>
Then if shop=pastry is roughly correct, feel free to ask for a key
pastry=, where you would add pastry=cukrászda (possibly a semicolon
separated list).<br>
<br>
And cukrászda= if you want to refine. Here cukrászda=Dobos
torte;Rákóczi túrós for instance.<br>
<br>
It's the Hungarian community to decide if cukraszda (without accent)
would be acceptable as as key.<br>
<br>
On <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Hungary">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Hungary</a> I read:<br>
<br>
Pastries, cake, and coffee are served at a cukrászda, while an
eszpresszó is a cafeteria.<br>
<br>
Served? Is it more like a teahouse? Usually do you stay to eat or
not? If you eat there, then shop=pastry is maybe not the best
choice.<br>
<br>
So on a mainstream renderer you'll get it roughly rendered <a
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Confectionery-14.svg"
class="image"><img alt="Confectionery-14.svg"
src="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/c/cc/Confectionery-14.svg/28px-Confectionery-14.svg.png"
width="28" height="28"></a> (roughly I said ;-)), on Overpass
turbo you'll be able to find exactly what you need and on a
Hungarian food oriented map you'll see the difference.<br>
<br>
So the only possible difficulty I see here is the usage of non ASCII
characters in a key. Not a big deal (by the way, refrain from using
abbreviations on international lists, I would have used NBD and BTW
with my Americans colleagues but intentionally NOT here: be more
inclusive with non native speakers. If you find it hard, remember,
it's about politeness and inclusion).<br>
<br>
Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.org">steveaOSM@softworkers.org</a> a écrit
:<br>
> This (a British English tagging heritage) is but one of the
realities that OSM forces upon us, and we live with it. I’m not
going to throw tomatoes at Allan, Frederik, or even Steve (Coast)
for this, as it is a solution that has become a “had to be made” (at
some point) decision early in our project.<br>
Neither would I, and Allan seems to be pessimistic, I believe here
nobody wants to throw tomatoes, and not only because it's bad to
throw food away! We do have different opinions on some points, but
in my honest opinion, we respect the other opinions and are trying
to find solutions. No definitive solutions, simply partial solutions
and move forward.<br>
<br>
Le 20/10/2022 à 15:57, grin via osmf-talk -
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org">osmf-talk@openstreetmap.org</a> a écrit :<br>
> Does café mean something which works like a café (in England?)
or something which is CALLED a café locally<br>
Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.org">steveaOSM@softworkers.org</a> a écrit
:<br>
> Whether café is “as in Britain” or “the Italian kind (because
the node is in Italy)" clearly remains a sore spot, as we do lose
great cultural diversity in our tagging as we flatten semantics to
fit into one particular dialect of one particular natural language.
(Or, perhaps better stated, all others who don’t know British
English words and concepts must learn about them to the extent their
tagging desires overlap with them, even as these are perfectly
described in another local language — with perfect precision).<br>
Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elgaard@agol.dk">elgaard@agol.dk</a> a
écrit :<br>
> Even in Denmark, which a small region, it is not easy to choose
between bar,cafe,restaurant,fast_food, etc.<br>
<br>
Yes, that's were the otherwise nice British English heritage starts
to be a nightmare: English people are not well known for there
cooking abilities and their language reflects that ;-) - I have
eaten excellent food cooked by English people in England, that's not
the topic.<br>
<br>
Nevertheless, I had a look at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse#United_Kingdom">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffeehouse#United_Kingdom</a>. The first
picture on this page is a café in... Paris.<br>
<br>
And on our wiki: "amenity=cafe (café) is for a generally informal
place with sit-down facilities selling beverages and light meals
and/or snacks. This includes coffee-shops and tea shops selling
perhaps tea, coffee and cakes through to bistros selling meals with
alcoholic drinks."<br>
<br>
So a clear overlapping with bars! And it matches the definition in
France and probably in Italy.<br>
<br>
Therefore not only people in France, Italy, or Danemark have an
issue with cafe/bar possibly others like pub.<br>
<br>
Here I see only some possibilities: add sub-keys like
takeaway=yes/no/only cafe=yes/no/only/rare (rare for my previous
Irish pub or for junk food: if you need, do it but if possible
avoid).<br>
<br>
And A LOT of similar keys.<br>
<br>
A lot? Then it will be tedious?<br>
<br>
Could be, but it's NOT a need.<br>
<br>
First on countries we have 2 default values.<br>
currency=EUR<br>
default_language=fr<br>
<br>
Then when it's about a name or a fee, we don't have to write the
language or the unit as long as it's the default. Note that for
those 2 keys, the values are defined by standards and nobody would
think that € would be a possible value (even if the symbol is only
used for Euro).<br>
<br>
Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elgaard@agol.dk">elgaard@agol.dk</a> a
écrit :<br>
> smoking=yes tells me that I do want to go there (in Denmark
smoking is illegal where food is served, but in some regions it is
allowed)<br>
<br>
So you want to say that smoking=no is the default in FR, DE... and
possibly in DK but smoking=yes in sub parts of DK.<br>
<br>
We can already deal with that in OSM.<br>
<br>
It could be more local (alcoholic drinks are forbidden at work in
Germany but beer in Bavaria is defined as not being an alcoholic
drink).<br>
<br>
How can we do that? With relations with type=defaults.<br>
<br>
It's an inactive proposal, but in my honest opinion and according to
the conversation here worth to reactivate. And to refine.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Defaults#Tags">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Defaults#Tags</a><br>
<br>
Here for DK you would have:<br>
<br>
type=defaults<br>
name:en=legal rules for cafe, and bar in DK<br>
note:en=locally overridden!<br>
def:amenity=cafe;smoking=no<br>
def:amenity=pub;smoking=no<br>
apply_to: (DK relation)<br>
<br>
type=defaults<br>
name:en=legal rules for cafe, and bar in some parts of DK<br>
note:en=overrides the default in DK!<br>
def:amenity=cafe;smoking=yes<br>
def:amenity=pub;smoking=yes<br>
apply_to: (several sub-DK relations)<br>
<br>
That way you could define what is to be expected in an average cafe,
bar... in FR, IT, GB.<br>
<br>
<p>Not that smoking may be related to the location in the cafe: in
France by default (i.e. without expensive filters) indoor smoking
is forbidden, outdoor is allowed.</p>
<p>Better support by mainstream editors would be needed.<br>
</p>
<p>Of course it should match the main key (don't say that in IT by
default a cafe can't be served in a cafe) and simply predefine
values for sub-keys. I think about possibility for seating, taking
away...</p>
<p>It's used to define default speed limits, holidays... : then on
opening:hours we can use SH without giving the value each year for
each POI.<br>
</p>
Le 21/10/2022 à 03:48, Niels Elgaard Larsen - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:elgaard@agol.dk">elgaard@agol.dk</a> a
écrit :<br>
> As a user I typically want to find food places where e.g,<br>
> * you can get a beer or a glass of wine with you meal.<br>
> * you can go out with your spouse, friends etc, sit down and
have lunch or dinner.<br>
with_spouse=yes ;-)<br>
But yes, got what you mean.<br>
"good" is subjective, cuisine= is more objective and if it's a
restaurant, not a bar the probability to have cooked food is higher.
No, for me a pizzeria is not a fast food except maybe if
takeaway=only/mainly (a non existent value, isn't it ?).<br>
<br>
Le 21/10/2022 à 16:46, steveaOSM - <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:steveaOSM@softworkers.org">steveaOSM@softworkers.org</a> a écrit
:<br>
> "the most commonly used tags, which act as informal standards.”<br>
<p>"act as": exactly.<br>
<br>
> as I honestly do think that such dialog is (must be) an
integral part of OSM’s culture.<br>
+ many ;-). You probably meant dialogue^^.<br>
</p>
Jean-Yvon<br>
</body>
</html>