<div dir="auto">Thank you for the update, Allan. <div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I don't post to the mailing list, very often, so didn't "wade in" to the mess. If this was taking place at my work, I would have called it out, as the behaviours weren't acceptable.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My view here sadly, is that if the mailing list wants to self destruct, then so be it. As an open source initiative, interested and motivated people will fill the void.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I wasn't aware of the etiquette guide, but am pleased to see it referenced. Sadly, as they say, you can't "legislate" for common sense and/ or good manners. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I wondered whether maybe the platform was the problem, but this is a distraction. Whether using Discord/ Discourse, a forum, or something else, it's not the medium that's the issue, it's the membership/ contributors, and how they are managed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Speaking as a neurodivergent contributor, I know that I sometimes have to actively moderate myself, as what's in my head, is not always what should exit!</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Like others, I too almost hit the Unsubscribe button, but having contributed since about 2007, I don't see why poor behaviours should force me out.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have no clear idea of who the "main players" are, and one paragraph biographies, don't highlight the "people skills", or capture bad behaviours such as we've been experiencing. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I hope that the contributions can be moderated, if necessary (is this in the Etiquette?), and "offenders" dealt with in line with the agreed standard/s.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">My experience tells me that no one in the team, is too big to leave unchallenged; if people are persistently falling foul of the standard, then they need to be managed.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">We all have strong opinions, but we need to know when to step-back. Having strong views about a whole new ontology/ semantics for metadata of tagging for "a new type of snow", or something, is not worth throwing a hand grenade into our community, for.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Let's try to get on, or many will hit the Unsubscribe button, and move energy into the long list of other open source mapping projects that need help.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The above is just my opinion, and is meant to be positive, yet realistic. If anyone wants to start an argument over the above, count me out; like most, I really have better things to spend my time on.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Chris</div><div dir="auto">chris_debian</div><div dir="auto"><a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chris_debian">https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/chris_debian</a></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, 15:58 Allan Mustard, <<a href="mailto:allanpmustard@gmail.com">allanpmustard@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The Moderation Team[1]
was distressed by the tone and content of several messages
posted to the OSMF-talk list during the month of October. After
admonishing privately two long-standing OSMF members for
violating the Etiquette Guidelines[2], the Moderation Team was
surprised to see a dispute erupt that quickly spun out of
control and degenerated into bickering and exchanges of ad
hominem attacks. Complaints were registered with us and
additionally, several people almost simultaneously unsubscribed
from osmf-talk.<br>
<br>
The Moderation Team followed up with the unsubscribers and
confirmed their motives. Not all left the list and quit the OSM
Foundation because of the tone of the communications that
disgusted them, but at least four did. Among their comments were<br>
<br>
"...I unsubscribed because I find the tone of discussions to be
systematically unpleasant and aggressive."<br>
<br>
"...We need transparency yes, but at the same time we don't need
to attack each other. I was personally getting annoyed with the
discussion tones. We need solutions not pin pointing each other.
We need team work not manipulators or people looking to get a
spotlight each time."<br>
<br>
"...I just find that every time there is a board meeting
announced (I believe that is the trigger) there is a flurry of
posts that typically get into the weeds all arguing about this
and that. To me it is just too tiresome. It seems mostly anti
collaborative -- not appearing to strive together to create a
better world, but rather complaining about actions or inactions
of various "leaders" of the organization."<br>
<br>
"...I was maybe a bit irritated with the internal politics."<br>
<br>
The Etiquette Guidelines were established to promote broader
participation in the work of the OSM project. Failure to adhere
to the Guidelines drives people away, which harms the project.
It's really that simple. The Moderation Team calls on all OSMF
members to observe the Guidelines, and if you have any doubts
about whether something you are posting in the heat of an
emotional response might violate them, we suggest that you stop,
put it aside for an hour, and come back after taking time to
contemplate whether your post will help or hurt the project.<br>
<br>
For the Moderation Team,<br>
Allan Mustard</font></p>
<p><font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">[1]
<a href="https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Moderation_team_for_talk_and_osmf-talk_mailing_lists" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://osmfoundation.org/wiki/Moderation_team_for_talk_and_osmf-talk_mailing_lists</a><br>
[2]
<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette/Etiquette_Guidelines" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Etiquette/Etiquette_Guidelines</a><br>
<br>
</font></p>
</div>
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