<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Mikel wrote (quoting Muki):<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">Google made map maker very easy to use - in few clicks you can start
adding data. OpenStreetMap - despite being aware of their usability
problems since at least 2007, have made relatively little progress -
Where is the Google Map Maker interface equivalence? Where is the
ability of anyone to start mapping within 2 minutes from wanting to
do so? Where is the deep concern within the community about the very
high number of people who manage to register to OSM but do not enter
any data? Where is the concern about the aggressive exchanges in
forums that are exclusionary by their very nature? Where is the
discussion about the gender bias? <br>
<br>
Just like with Linux, OSM have an ambivalent culture which at the
same time want people to join while feeling very proud that it is
'not for everyone' and a certain level of mastery is required to
join in. The lack of a major sustained effort to make it as easy as
Google Map Maker - especially when there is such an obvious example
out there - lead to the conclusion that within the 'do'-ocracy that
OSM is, not enough people think that it's a top priority. <br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Certainly I think it's an enormous priority, can sketch out _exactly_ what I'd like to see, and would love to do something about it if I had the time.</div><div><br></div><div>I can't; because Potlatch takes up all my time. The number of people actually contributing code that is useful to new editing users (other than geeks who can take JOSM and run with it) is vanishingly small: basically, those of us working on P2 and those working on the main site. That's probably a cabal of five people or so. In contrast, ask yourself how many people are working on QA alone for GMM.</div><div><br></div><div>A couple of years ago I was sitting next to a well-known OSMer at a geo event. We were listening to a presentation about "we've started this great initiative to hear, encourage and help develop your ideas". He muttered to me that this is entirely the wrong problem. There's no shortage of great ideas: the shortage is of people to do them.</div><div><br></div><div>It wasn't an OSM-specific presentation, but it's very true of OSM. About the only thing we do to encourage new developers is, ironically enough, Google Summer of Code, and that never works.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>On a related issue: our community is fucked. It always used to be what we were proudest of in OSM. For one reason or another, and I guess a lot of us are culpable, large parts of it have gone to shit.</div><div><br></div><div>When Muki says "OSM... feels very proud that it is 'not for everyone'," I count myself out. If someone can tell us that we're missing a POI or that a road is wrongly named, I want their contribution. I am personally cross that I haven't had the time to make the site inviting enough for this.</div><div><br></div><div>_But_ the do-ocracy should still hold true. We welcome your contribution. Thanks. We welcome your feedback for how to improve the site. Thanks too. We'll do something about it, if we think it's a good idea (it probably is) and if we have enough resources (the current issue). <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">But you are still just a user.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">Somehow (and Muki touches on this) we have evolved a bizarre culture where every conspiracy theorist, wacko libertarian nutjob, and semi-literate moron can post on the mailing lists and expect to be listened to - and answered. "You own the copyright in your contributions" has evolved into "...and therefore you run the entire project". It's crazy. We have eroded the distance between users and project leaders.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">It's not a do-ocracy if "those who don't" are on the same level as "those who do".</span><br></div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">I find it difficult to believe that, on the the mailing lists for Linux kernel or Drupal or Apache (or whatever), anyone can turn up and expect the right to unlimited debate with the brains behind the project. I find it difficult to believe that Linux's equivalents of, say, Grant or Frederik are expected to endure the abuse that the nutjobs hurl at these two on the lists.</span> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">When "those who do" aren't valued, fewer people volunteer to "do".</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">The other side of this is when "development" (in its widest sense) takes place without the structure of a do-ocracy. The classic example is OSM's documentation - aka "welcome! Here's how you contribute to this map" - which is ghastly. When anyone can contribute on an equal level, and there's no "maintainer", it becomes shapeless and unhelpful. Documentation is essential: Wikipedia has the advantage that everyone's used a word-processor; very few people have ever used a vector drawing program. Yet we continue to hobble ourselves.</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>More and more, I wonder if, to fix the website, we have to first fix the community.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">cheers</span><br></div><div>Richard</div><div><br></div></body></html>