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Hi.<br>
There are two things I would like to make additions to.<br>
<br>
1) separate or tag-scheme (the long discussion in general):<br>
I'm one of the people who think, both should be used on a
case-by-case-basis.<br>
Working on a map- and routing-portal for blind people (therefore
most likely a special case of pedestrian routing in the main focus)
we thought about this issue several hours.<br>
On the one hand we would prefer to have separate tagged sidewalks as
it's necessary to have information about crossings etc.<br>
On the other hand we are active mappers, too. Therefore we know,
that it's more work to map separate sidewalks, if one start to add
more details than already possible with the tags at the street.<br>
We came to the conclusion to try going the following way:<br>
- As application developers we have to generally support both
schemes. The separate ways, because they are better, the tags
because they are more often availlable.<br>
- It's necessary to create virtual, local ways for the sidewalks -
but that should be possible. Problems could arise, where the street
has footway:left=yes and additionally a separate tagged way. I
thought about footway:left=separate to state, that there is a
sidewalk on the left side of the street, but that this footway is
mapped separately, too. I would appreciate comments to this idea.<br>
- If possible and we have the time, we want to support a tool to
expand the tags to separate ways in a semi-automated manner. But
that's only the sketch of an idea yet.<br>
Finally: It's better to tag footway:left etc. than to tag nothing
about sidewalks. It's better to map separate sidewalks - if you are
able to consider the width of the street, the wide of the sidewalks
and possibly strips of green or lanes of parking cars in between.<br>
For crossings it's good to tag them even when footways are tagged
not separately, but it's not possible AFAIK to indicate features of
the sides of the crossings (sloped curbs, tactile paving etc.). If
footways are mapped as separate ways, think about mapping crossings
as 5-node-ways like the following ASCII-Art indicates:<br>
<tt>| | |<br>
+++++<br>
| | |<br>
</tt>The vertical lines left and right are the footways, mapped as
highway=footway; footway=sidewalk; width=*; surface=*;
name=name-of-the-street;<br>
The vertical line in the middle is the street, mapped as highway=*;
footway:both=separate; name=name-of-the-street;<br>
The horizontal line, here 5 times + is the crossing way with 5
nodes: the outer nodes are connected to the sidewalks and not tagged
with anything.<br>
The node in the middle is tagged as highway=crossing; crossing=*
(e.g. uncontrolled); crossing_ref=* (e.g. zebra). It's connected to
the street and to the crossing way.<br>
The nodes in between are only part of the crossing way. They
indicate the curbs at both sides of the street. Tagging should
consist of sloped_curb=*; tactile_paving=*; where sloped_curb is a
measurement (necessary for wheelchair users) or a rough value out of
0, low, normal, high. The latter allows applications for blind
people to prevent dangerous issues (where there is no curb at all -
sloped_curb=0), and wheelchair drivers have better information than
nothing. That's not perfect for wheelchair drivers - I know, but
it's possible to survey nearly on-the-fly, while a concrete
measurement would require lot more time.<br>
<br>
2) Footway names:<br>
Let a sidewalk be mapped as separate way. Then the question arised
in the discussion, if this sidewalk way should get a name attribute
with the name of the street.<br>
As far as I understood that, most people did not want that. The
argument to not tag the name to sidewalks was mainly, that it's the
name of the street; not name of the sidewalk.<br>
I have a counter argument, that on the other side could be an
argument against separate mapping of sidewalks: A sidewalk is part
of the street.<br>
Therefore to be completely correct, the name would belong to the
associatedStreet relation. If not availlable (as I also prefer the
relation to be optional), I think, it's correct to be more verbose
and redundant here and to tag the name to street AND sidewalks.<br>
If we take into account the proposed footway=sidewalk, it's very
easy to prevent sidewalk names from being rendered in graphical
maps.<br>
<br>
regards<br>
Peter<br>
<br>
Am 03.04.2011 10:42, schrieb David Paleino:
<blockquote cite="mid:20110403104249.7f15aad9@local" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hello Ed,
On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 22:26:22 -0400, Ed Hillsman wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">The discussion of the sidewalk issue seems to have stopped. I added
some comments in the discussion section of the wiki last week, but
there have been no further comments there or here in nearly a week.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I saw your comments on the talk page, but I took them as generally appreciation
-- i.e. there was no question? :)
(yes, the relation is optional)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I think each of the proposals (sidewalks as separate ways, and
sidewalks as attributes of streets) has merit in different
circumstances, and the choice of which to use should be optional. Like
Josh Doe, I've been mapping sidewalks as separate ways, but that is
because I've done most of my mapping in the suburban areas where I
work and live. I've tried it a bit in downtown Tampa, and down there I
think it makes more sense to tag them as attributes of roads.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Could you clarify why in one case you chose the "separate way", and in the
other case you chose "tagging the main road"? This could be enlightening for
those thinking that the two proposals are in contrast :)
(I myself believe they can cohexist -- I just believe that mapping separate
ways gives the chance of mapping more details, that's all)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Except for a few block faces and intersections, where the city hasn't
made curb/kerb cuts for wheelchairs yet. This means that some intersections
have some sidewalks where wheelchairs can cross in some directions,
but not in all. And for these I would code the sidewalks as separate
ways.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
This is one of such examples, thanks. However, it seems a bit odd to have
"mixed styles" in one place/city/... :) -- but maybe it's just a matter of
taste ;)
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">With regard to routing, sidewalks on college campuses, in parks, and
in cemeteries may be interior to a large area bounded by streets, and
as a result some may not have an associated street to use for a name.A
few sidewalks on a few campuses may have names of their own ("Slant
Walk" on the Miami University (Ohio) campus, is one example), but most
don't. So routing will need to come up with some other way to refer to
them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I guess the named ones would have a name= attached; for the others, I can
imagine a router saying "turn left at the next footway, 200m" -- just like they
do with unnamed roads (be them unnamed, or the name hasn't been tagged yet).
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">This is an unresolved issue, but it's one for the routing, not
for OSM to deal with (if there is no name, there is no name to tag).
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Right.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">[..]
Where a street parallels a street, but at a distance, I share the
concerns about using relations to associate sidewalks with their
streets. Would it work to add a tag "associated_street" and then
simply list the name of the street? For example, highway=footway,
associated_street="East Fowler Avenue". A value of "none" could be
coded if the sidewalk does not parallel a street.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
Well, the relation is optional, but there usually is one already.
associatedStreet/street, in fact, is used for housenumbers -- so creating one
for sidewalks wouldn't be "wasted time" -- it's just preceding the housenumbers
mapping :)
But yes, being the relation optional, we can just use plain tags (even though
I'm fond of relations, and believe plain tags can become broken).
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I hope there will be more discussion of these two proposals.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
I can't sincerely say why they stopped. Probably temperature became too hot to
continue :) -- I must say I calmed down a bit on my side, I just hope we don't
start again fighting each other ;)
Kindly,
David
</pre>
<pre wrap="">
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</blockquote>
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