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On 2012-09-17 16:05, Richard Mann wrote :
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMLmWVuPLD073_Vk0yJ7+ZjXiDN6LTggcCN69g4zExUhrQgh+w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">It looks like it's just inside the village
(commune?) boundary. Maybe they mean the whole village?<br>
</blockquote>
No, that would stop commerce on the very much important N633 through
Esneux.<br>
Behind the scene if you want to know, understand the word hush, is
that madame la bourgmestre developed a special dislike of <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.53602&mlon=5.63291&zoom=16&layers=M">trafic
coming from here</a>. The sole goal of the road sign is to force
her neigbour commune to divert that traffic down to N633 through the
route de Méry, which is much narrower, winding and bordered with
ravines. That cost more that her sign: changing direction signs,
placing retention rails plus the vehicles testing them.<br>
<br>
But, beside the political issue having little place here, is my
phrase "what does that highway code tell us about C23 after all?",
starting the OSM issue. According to that code, C23 is a node sign.<br>
<br>
On 2012-09-17 16:40, Martin Vonwald wrote :<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If I understood André correct, there is only
one sign. So there is no "area within" unless you want to add the
whole world ;-)<br>
</blockquote>
Correct, single sign, and madame la bourgmestre herself cannot
describe the area (but she might have a plan to rule the world ;-)).<br>
<br>
On 2012-09-17 16:25, Eckhart Wörner wrote : <br>
<blockquote cite="mid:8075619.qRvBruoKm0@obiwan" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Am Montag, 17. September 2012, 16:04:19 schrieb Martin Vonwald:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> My two cents: we should allow such kind of restriction to be placed on a
node, because that's the way they work. They are just some kind of "legal
barrier" and barriers on a road we (usually) map as a node.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">
that wouldn't solve the problem; vehicles are forbidden to pass the legal barrier coming from both sides.
Technically, it would be more of a turn restriction.
In any case, the extended conditions/conditional access debate has to be solved first, because otherwise the combination of signs is a problem in itself.
</pre>
</blockquote>
In this C23 case, heavy vehicles are forbidden to go to Esneux, not
to leave it.<br>
That would be extra fun; you have understood that, politically, the
restriction is <b>before</b> the sign.<br>
One way restriction.<br>
And, to me, a node restriction. No relations, please, no thanks.<br>
The relation with the extended cond* prompted me to hasten my
posting.<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAMLmWVuPLD073_Vk0yJ7+ZjXiDN6LTggcCN69g4zExUhrQgh+w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:55 PM, André
Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A_Pirard@hotmail.com" target="_blank">A_Pirard@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;
border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);"
class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hi,<br>
<br>
Summary: setting access restrictions on ways sometimes
(often?) inappropriate<br>
Full story and conclusions: ...<br>
<br>
At <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.5309716&mlon=5.5954177&zoom=19"
target="_blank">50.5308 5.5959</a>, there's a C23 road
sign (below) towards NW town Esneux.<br>
As understood with common sense, they don't want heavy
vehicles inside Esneux and <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ign.be/Common/leg10/10000FR.htm"
target="_blank">cartographers will use</a> a distinctive
rendering (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ign.be/Common/leg10/images/leg1n_10.gif"
target="_blank">road with traffic restriction</a>) <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxweight"
target="_blank">over the restricted ways</a>.<br>
Which means I have to look for other corresponding road
signs to determine the span.<br>
I found none, starting with none on the next left Rue de la
Cissure (rdlC).<br>
I asked Esneux' administration in vain.<br>
That means that a heavy lorry can come through Esneux, drive
through rdlC up to the village Fontin and then U turn and go
all the way back as if it had passed the C23 sign. How can
cops book anyone unless they come and sit near the sign? ;-)<br>
<br>
So, I defined the weight restriction from the sign up to
rdlC, over 50m. That's incorrect because it's not one-way
but it's the best I could do to reconcile OSM and ADM.<br>
Sounds kinda stupid but I plead not guilty.<br>
<br>
But now what does that highway code tell us about C23 after
all?<br>
"accès interdit" = "forbidden access": to where? To behind
the sign, of course.<br>
Unlike C43 speed limit below which is bound to say "up to
the next crossing" to tell you where you can speed up again,
there is no point in saying what happens behind C23 sign if
the driver cannot go there, is there? <br>
<br>
But now how can we make a map of such a case if <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxweight"
target="_blank">OSM instructions</a> make the weight
limit a way attribute and JOSM scolds with : <i>Wrong
highway tag on a node. Suspicious tag/value combinations</i>?
Is that Esneux adm playing tricks on OSM? ;-)<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top">André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
<table border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="middle"><img
src="cid:part1.09000507.00080701@hotmail.com"></td>
<td valign="middle"><strong>C23. </strong><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.code-de-la-route.be/textes-legaux/sections/ar/code-de-la-route/251-art68"
target="_blank"><b>Accès interdit</b></a> aux
conducteurs de véhicules affectés au transport de
choses.<br>
Une inscription sur un panneau additionnel limite
l'interdiction aux conducteurs de véhicules dont la
masse en charge dépasse la masse indiquée.</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="top" align="center">
<table width="75%" border="0" cellpadding="2"
cellspacing="2">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign="top" align="center"
bgcolor="#0000ff"><font color="#ffffff">7,5t</font><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
<td valign="top"><br>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td valign="middle"><img alt=""
src="cid:part2.05060007.08080306@hotmail.com"></td>
<td valign="middle"> C43. <b>A partir du signal
jusqu'au prochain carrefour</b>, interdiction de
circuler à une vitesse supérieure à celle qui est
indiquée.<br>
- La mention “km” sur le signal est facultative.<br>
- Lorsqu'une masse est indiquée sur un panneau
additionnel, l'interdiction n'est applicable qu'aux
véhicules dont la masse maximale autorisée excède la
limite fixée.<br>
Le signal C43, avec la mention 30 km/h, placé
au-dessus du signal F1 vaut sur l'ensemble des
voiries comprises dans les limites de
l'agglomération.<br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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