<html><head></head><body>This sounds like a reasonable compromise. Incidentally, I am an American and would not classify pastries and confections as the same thing, although one shop will sometimes sell both. I would tend to think of a "bread shop" as a shop that sells bread, and perhaps other baked goods, but does not do its own baking. Typically, these shops sell goods originating from a single industrial-scale bakery, and which have been returned by grocery stores after they did not sell, but which are still in good condition.<br>
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<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Murry McEntire <murry.mcentire@gmail.com> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra"> Note: I'm using on-line translation
dictionaries. Please correct or
clarify any non-English word misuse. I have tried to learn other languages, but find I am
not adept at language skills. I know dictionaries can be misleading or wrong from experience. Years ago I ate in a Munich
restaurant where the menus did not have translations and was the only place I encountered while in Germany where
none of the staff spoke English. Fortunately the menu had pictures so I pointed at my main course then tried to order a soda pop. I tried three terms from my guidebook and none were understood. A couple dining at the restaurant that spoke a tiny bit of English tried to help and I ended up with tonic water. Ugh. (The main course was delicious.) I was informed later by a German associate that any of the terms would have worked in Berlin, but the guidebook had used regional terms that were a poor choice for Germany as a whole.<br />
</div><br />A summary as I understand it:<br /><br />We currently have English labels and definitions used for tags for bakery and confectionery that have language translation mismatches, especially based on common usage of the words.<br />
<div><div class="gmail_extra"><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">English cultures are comfortable using one term for shops of any type bakery goods (bakery), but continental Europeans are not. There may be regulatory reasons in Europe for not grouping them as a whole.<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Some specifics:<br /></div><br /></div><div>The English definitions for the tags are misleading or wrong. Defining a bakery as "sells bread" is highly misleading. It is more likely to be understood by common usage as a cake or pastry shop. Listing pastry as a product of a confectionery is wrong as the term means candy or chocolates shop. Pastries are bakery goods.<br />
<br /></div><div><div class="gmail_extra">backeri, boulangerie are linked to bakery, when a much more appropriate choice would have been bread shop.<br />kondertorei, feinbakdere, patisserie, viennoiseries may be linked to confectionery when the most accurate choice would have been bakery, <br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">English usage, common meanings and problems with technical/translation definitions:<br /><br /></div>Americans first look to bakery (in directories, legends, web searches, ...) for any type of bakery product. It appears the United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia do the same (or for bakers). Americans then may look for sub classes such as bread, cakes, pastry. Americans commonly refer to bread shops, as in "I'm going to the bread store", but often call them bakeries. Americans have understanding of cake shop, pastry shop, pie shop; but often reference them by the more general "I'm going to the bakery"Americans have no commonly used term for shops that sell all types of non-bread bakery goods other than bakery.<br />
<div class="gmail_extra"><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Cakes and pastries are generally thought to be different things (perhaps because one is made with batter and one with pastry (literally paste) dough), but some (nations) see pastries as a subset of cakes and other see cakes as a subset of pastries. Pastry to Americans means sweet bakery items
made primarily from pastry dough. Secondary meanings can include pies,
tarts and quiches, or meat pies. Items made from batters or various
bread doughs are generally not considered pastries<br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Although some of the translation dictionaries linked non-English terms for pastry to confectionery, this is an esoteric linking and should not be used. The translation definition I received for konditorei was "cake shop, confectioners shop", the second of which is wrong unless konitorei commonly specialize in zuckeri and konfekt. I do not believe they do?<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Since the translation dictionaries lacked specifics, I'm assuming feinbackerei, konditorei and patisserie can be interpreted as selling most kinds of non-bread bakery goods. Not so sure about viennoiseries which may be pastries only. <br />
<br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">A new proposed solution considering the most appropriate English definitions and the needs of both groups.<br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">A new category shop=bread be created. backerie, boulangerie should be linked to this shop.<br />
</div><div class="gmail_extra">The English definition: a shop that specializes in selling breads. See also shop=bakery.<br />Question: would a nationality cuisine sub tag be useful enough to mention for use? <br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">
The category shop=bakery be retained; konditorei, feinbackerei, patisserie should be linked to this shop. It should also be used where both bread and non-bread bakery products sales are important, and when the specific baked good sold is unknown. A sub tag cuisine=<<nationality>> could be used but is optional and should only be used if the nationality differs from that of the location.<br />
</div><div class="gmail_extra">The English definition: a shop that sells bakery goods such as cakes, pastries, pies, and bread. See also shop=bread.<br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">I would prefer not to define any other type of bakery goods shop, but I'll let the continental Europeans tell me if there is a need. Understand that if shop=pastry is added it would be defined to sell pastries (and perhaps pies or tarts) and point to the wikipedia page for pastries, so would not sell cakes, cookies or other bakery goods. If you need a distinct shop for all non-bread bakery goods; tagging with multiple nodes (or a values list) of cake shop, pastry shop and perhaps others would be needed<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">The category shop=confectionery have its definition corrected: a shop that sells sweets: candy and chocolate; with a pointer to the wikipedia page for confectionery. See shop=bakery for pastries.<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Sub tags be created of the form bread=yes or bakery_good:bread=yes for for use with shop=bakery and perhaps other tags. They would include (from my previous email) <br />bagel: bagels See also amenity=cafe;cuisine=bagel<br />
bread: yeast bread, artisan
bread, rustic bread, dinner roll, hard roll, flat bread, soda bread,
baguettes, ciabatta bread, focaccia, pita, tortilla<br />cake:
layer cake, snack cake, sheet cake, bundt cake, pound cake, sponge
cake, cupcake, wedding cake, torte., fruit cake, nut cake.<br />
cobbler: cobblers, betties, buckles, crisps, crumbles, pandowdy, grunts, slumps, fruit dumplings.<br />cookie: cookies, brownies, blondies, bar cookies<br />donut: donuts<br />pastry:
baklava, croissants, danish pastry, kolachy, puff pastry (cream puff,
eclairs), pasties, roly-poly, strudel, turnovers (and also point to the
wkipedia pastries entry)<br />
pie: pies, tarts, quiche <br />specialty_bread:
sweet breads, monkey bread, hoiliday breads, brioche, challah,
stollen, quick breads, banana bread, zucchini bread, buns, cinnamon
rolls, sweet rolls, twists, corn bread, spoon bread, muffins, biscuits,
english muffins, scones, popovers.<br />
<div class="gmail_quote"> <br /></div><div class="gmail_quote">Some might interpret specialty_bread to mean artisan bread and the like at first thought, but I have yet to encounter a better term.<br /><br /></div>After seeing the common product list of bakeries in the United Kingdom and Australia, the following sub tags.may be needed:<br />
</div><div class="gmail_extra">sandwiches: sandwiches.<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">meat_pies: meat pies, pasties.<br /><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Sandwiches in this context are currently being tagged as amenity=fast_food, cuisine=sandwich and I do not expect that to change for Americans. Hopefully this is sufficient for the British, but I would rather provide a useful sub tag if needed rather than snub them.<br />
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">The bakery goods sub tag wiki page should caution against using shop=bakery and the sub tags for a business where amenity=cafe or amenity=fast_food and a cuisine sub tag are more appropriate. That while a shop may have a table or two, the expectation is products will not be consumed on the premises.<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Sub tags be created of type sweet:chocolate=yes or chocolate=yes for use with shop=confectionery.<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Sub tag values would include candy and chocolate. I am aware of many shops that specialize in one or the other (as well as ones that carry both). I did not encounter a need for other values. Candy does have a second meaning that includes chocolate, but in context of a values list I do not think it would be misinterpreted.<br />
<br /></div><div class="gmail_extra">Murry<br /></div></div></div>
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