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<p>Nobody uses the archaic word "omnibus" these days. You may as well suggest replacing "car" with "horseless carriage".</p>
<p>I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country. Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between the countries.</p>
<p>A few questions which come to mind:</p>
<ul>
<li><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">If there is a road sign indicating "Taxis only" (might be a road, might be parking), what is considered a Taxi?</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include long-distance scheduled services? Does it include "touring cars" (a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours?</span></li>
<li><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">What is considered a PSV? Does this concept actually exist in your country - for vehicle licensing or for driver licensing or something else?</span></li>
</ul>
<p>This is intended to *derive* a model of reality, instead of suggesting thousands of potential ways of tagging things until almost everyone gives up and goes home.</p>
<p>Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on.</p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Lucida Grande', Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;">Colin</span></p>
<p> </p>
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<p>On 2014-01-16 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:</p>
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<div class="gmail_quote">2014/1/15 martinq <span><<a href="mailto:osm-martinq@fantasymail.de">osm-martinq@fantasymail.de</a>></span><br />
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;">"in service" was (and is) not required by the definition & description of the "psv" tag or the "taxi". Only in "bus" it was mixed in ("acting as a public service").</div>
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<div>"in service" is implicit in "public service vehicle", because if they are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up.<br /><br /> </div>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br /> There is no way to tag "taxi in service" so far in OSM, only "taxi" (as a car category).</div>
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<div>is there really a "taxi" vehicle category? I am aware that the vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty. <br /><br /><br /></div>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br /> So I do not agree that "taxi" and "psv" belong to the "by-use" group.</div>
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<div>OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled (e.g. voting?)<br /><br /></div>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br /> I strongly suggest to move "psv", "bus" and "taxi" back to the original place in the wiki!</div>
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<div>for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is explicit for a long time.<br /><br /><br /></div>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;">
<div class="im"> </div>
Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess what they really understand and have understood. But I don't think it is an intuitive tag.</div>
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<div>I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a problem, as they won't have an idea about the meaning of a cryptic abbreviation prior to looking it up in the wiki, while people speaking English but not UK English as their mothertongue are more at risk of understanding something else (and not looking the definition up in the wiki).<br /><br /></div>
<div>I do agree that it is not an intuitive tag (but it saves us lots of bytes in the db ;-) ), and it is a very old tag and quite used.</div>
<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br />
<div class="im"><br /><br />
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb; padding-left: 1ex;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb; padding-left: 1ex;"> 2) Introduce value "public_transport"<br /> omnibus=no & bus=yes can also be expressed as omnibus=public_transport<br /> IMHO we can stick to psv.</blockquote>
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<blockquote style="margin-left: 40px;">not clear to me. psv for what?</blockquote>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"> </div>
<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;">as generic term for buses and taxis. I agree that creating a new vehicle class "omnibus" is also appealing, and there are currently 0 uses of this key so it might work out.<br /><br /></div>
<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br />
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb; padding-left: 1ex;">Separating "bus" as vehicle category from "by-use" - and putting it into a value like - is not just more consistent: It is more flexible (I can distinguish between taxi in service and any taxi the same way), it easier to understand what omnibus=public_transport means, compared to the current "bus=yes".</blockquote>
<br /><br />+1<br />
<div class="im"><br /><br /> 3) Depreciate"psv" (or broaden the meaning to all "public service"</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">because of the JOSM turn restriction plugin? What about changing that<br /> plugin?</blockquote>
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<div>"broaden" the usage will probably not get a majority, but we can see. Not sure if this is needed anyway. </div>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb; padding-left: 1ex;">no, the argument for depreciation was: There is no need for this artificial group: Grouping taxi (both "in service" as well as not in service) with only those buses acting as public transport. Taxi access and bus access are distinct things. No ambiguous, poorly understood (here the poor plug-in just confirms that PSV is not well-understood) short-cut like "psv" is needed. If taxi and bus can access, why not bus=* & taxi=*?</blockquote>
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<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;">you mean "omnibus" rather than bus, no? +1</div>
<div id=":zm" style="overflow: hidden;"><br />
<div class="im"> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb; padding-left: 1ex;">By the way:<br /> The key name "tourist_bus" is also non-intuitive, not every non-public transport bus is a "tourist bus</blockquote>
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<div class="gmail_extra">well, as this doesn't seem to be well defined outside of OSM we can use what we think is OK, currently the definition is "a bus not acting as a public service vehicle"</div>
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<div class="gmail_extra">cheers,<br />Martin</div>
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