<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Here's my take from an Englishman!<br>
<br>
While the term dirt road is used here, it is much rarer as all
public (adopted) roads in the UK are paved in some way shape or
form. Most dirt roads are probably private roads, farm tracks or
paths. <br>
<br>
Now, back to the original question. I totally agree with
Fernando, these classifications are confusing. In English English
they pretty well mean the same thing. We should look to
rationalise them.<br>
<br>
However, remember the surface tag is used elsewhere other than
roads/tracks where there may be some distinction, although I can't
imagine what the distinction may be.<br>
<br>
In general English usage there meanings rely on context but in
this context of describing a base surface to something I would go
with dirt to mean a loose surface, unpaved, water permeable,
degradable surface. Ground and earth are just too vague to be of
any use.<br>
<br>
Jonathan<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bigfatfrog67.me">http://bigfatfrog67.me</a></pre>
On 13/03/2014 08:57, Dave Swarthout wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAKWFYhWpnk_BvMFXD0SAPMJ7Lj9NsQcOYqr61wSzCYbfF1u5XQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I'll weigh in with the common American conception
of "dirt road". It is a general term meaning unpaved. As Jaakko
correctly pints out, some "dirt roads" are really quite well
built. For an example close to my Alaska home, the long lonely
road leading to the Prudhoe Bay oilfields, see these images of
the Dalton Highway:
<div>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=2133&bih=1185&q=dalton+highway+alaska&oq=dalton+highway">https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=2133&bih=1185&q=dalton+highway+alaska&oq=dalton+highway</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my neighborhood of Homer, Alaska, indeed in most of
rural Alaska, residential roads are generally unpaved. Due to
the severe winter conditions, paving roads in Alaska is very
expensive and once paved they require frequent, expensive
maintenance. I tag them as surface=gravel to agree with OSM
definitions but in everyday conversations they're called dirt
roads. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To construct such a road involves removing all the topsoil
above the frost line, piling truckloads of gravel base over
the subsoil, putting down a layer of geo-textile fabric to
keep the road base stable during spring "breakup", and then
putting more truckloads of a specially formulated mixture of
clay, gravel and sand on top and grading it smooth. Once the
highway is open for use, this grading process is repeated
several times during each "summer season" as rain and traffic
regularly pound potholes into it. The best time to drive on
these roads is in winter after the first snow has hardened
into a smooth layer — no potholes, no dust, smooth running.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As for "earth" or "ground" — I've never encountered those
terms as descriptions of road surfaces. Many dirt roads in the
United States are not as good as those in Alaska because of
the expense involved and because winters are so much less
severe. They are really just dirt — an unpaved track whose
composition is a mix of clay and sand and gravel, whatever is
there to begin with plus some topping to make it less slippery
in rain.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AlaskaDave</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:05 PM,
Jaakko Helleranta.com <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:jaakko@helleranta.com"
target="_blank">jaakko@helleranta.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">My (non-native) English understanding / ear
says that dirt is a general name for all unpaved roads.
This may include any loose material, really ranging from
soil that just happened to be there to natural or
processed sand to industrially produced gravel, possibly
with an added layer of "loose" material spread on top of
the gravel to make it less loose (eg rock ash). So, as far
as I classify / understand, dirt roads _may_ be quite well
built.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Now, earth and ground both give me a strong
connotation of a road (or a borderline track) that is
practically not built. Or at least the surface material is
not processed sand or gravel and certainly it doesn't have
a "finishing layer" such as rock ash. <br>
This said I would also consider earth=ground surfaced
roads as being clearly more prone to bad condition after
rains (or melted snow, etc).</p>
<p dir="ltr">So, I would say that earth and ground are
synonyms but dirt is the broader concept. In fact I would
see dirt pretty much synonymous to unpaved - but would
hesitate to nuke one of those over another as I would not
be surprised if a bunch of people would see this
differently.</p>
<p dir="ltr">How do others here understand these terms?</p>
<p dir="ltr">Cheers, <br>
-Jaakko <br>
.. Whose family's summer cottage in Finland has a pretty
well self-constructed 1.5km strip of dirt road leading to
it with sand base, gravel top, rock ash finishing layer.</p>
<p dir="ltr">--<br>
Sent from my Android device. * <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B505-8845-3391" value="+50588453391"
target="_blank">+505-8845-3391</a> * <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://about.me/jaakkoh"
target="_blank">http://about.me/jaakkoh</a></p>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Hello,<br>
<br>
There are 3 values for surface (ground, dirt and
earth) that are<br>
described as "probably equivalent" in the wiki. The
pictures tell a<br>
slightly different story: ground seems to allow the
presence of<br>
"grass" along with "usage marks" (car or pedestrian
tracks), as does<br>
earth, whereas dirt seems to include no grass and
include the<br>
possibility of "mud" after rainfall.<br>
<br>
TagInfo shows that "earth" is significantly less used
than the other<br>
two. Could we officially recommend against that value
then? Having so<br>
many equal things makes translation (and teaching)
much harder than<br>
necessary, and I don't see when an application would
differentiate<br>
between these values.<br>
<br>
I tried searching for their definitions in English
dictionaries, but<br>
they point to each other as synonyms. "Earth" is
sometimes cited as a<br>
"poetic description" of soil. "Ground" could describe
anything from<br>
"soil" to harder surfaces. I believe the most accurate
description<br>
would actually be something along the lines of "bare
soil" (confirmed<br>
by comparing results in Google Images).<br>
<br>
--<br>
Fernando Trebien<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B55%20%2851%29%209962-5409"
value="+555199625409" target="_blank">+55 (51)
9962-5409</a><br>
<br>
"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months."
(Moore's law)<br>
"The speed of software halves every 18 months."
(Gates' law)<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org"
target="_blank">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tagging mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging"
target="_blank">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">Dave Swarthout<br>
Homer, Alaska<br>
Chiang Mai, Thailand<br>
Travel Blog at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://dswarthout.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dswarthout.blogspot.com</a></div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>