<div dir="ltr">I agree with David Bannon when he says "<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> 'earth' and 'ground' are really not very </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">informative terms" when it comes to road surfaces but not what he says about dirt, and with most of what Martin said in his recent post, but especially that a "dirt road does not contain gravel" even though we colloquially apply the term dirt road to ones with a gravel surface. A true dirt road is one that runs atop normal ground and its surface is not prepared or engineered in any special way.</span><div>
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">The dirt roads I described in Alaska are more properly described by your proposal as "compacted" or "fine gravel" in that they employ a specially engineered composition of small stones, sand, clay and whatever, compacted and smoothed to offer a smooth and <i>relatively</i> weatherproof surface. </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">There are a lot of mud roads in Alaska as well. This is a dirt road that runs through swampy, boggy areas and typically should not be attempted in an ordinary automobile but rather with 4WD or all-terrain vehicle (ATV).</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">In the proposal there is this phrase in the description of "gravel" that I would have you remove: "</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)">Broken/crushed rock with sharp edges, known as ballast on railways" The ballast I typically see on railways could not be driven on comfortably. The stones are much too big and have, as you correctly state, sharp edges. I would be in favor of something along the lines of</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)">"similar to compacted above but less carefully engineered, more loosely arranged"</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)">Thanks for the good work you're doing with this proposal. I think it will be a big help in describing surfaces. Now if we could only just deal with the issue of "smoothness" or "trafficability" in such a straightforward manner LOL</span></div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)"><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:26.399999618530273px;background-color:rgb(249,249,249)">Dave</span></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:38 AM, Fernando Trebien <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:fernando.trebien@gmail.com" target="_blank">fernando.trebien@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Well, I've updated the descriptions in the wiki for ground, dirt and<br>
earth: <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AMap_Features%3Asurface&diff=1000653&oldid=978363" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AMap_Features%3Asurface&diff=1000653&oldid=978363</a><br>
<br>
Does it look ok?<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 6:31 PM, David Bannon <<a href="mailto:dbannon@internode.on.net">dbannon@internode.on.net</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> In Australia, we refer to a "dirt road" meaning just about any unsealed<br>
> road. Very rarely use "earth" or "ground". Ground sounds to me more like<br>
> the level than the surface, I'd argue most roads are at ground level !<br>
><br>
> We often describe a gravel road as a dirt road, as such a road goes<br>
> through its normal maintenance cycle, the gravel can become almost<br>
> invisible, lost in the dust or mud if it rains.<br>
><br>
> At the risk of complicating the matter, I'd rather distinguish between<br>
> "made" and "unmade" dirt roads. A road that has been graded and made<br>
> dome shaped (as the Roman's taught us) is "made" - usually an easy<br>
> drive. Some drivers get nervous on unmade roads as they develop pot<br>
> holes much quicker and the surface can deliver "surprises".<br>
><br>
> So I suggest 'dirt', 'earth' and 'ground' are really not very<br>
> informative terms.<br>
><br>
> David<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Thu, 2014-03-13 at 16:57 -0300, Fernando Trebien wrote:<br>
>> So:<br>
>> - "earth" is a close synonym of "soil" (though it's not exactly the same thing)<br>
>> - "ground" could refer to: soil/earth (no vegetation), soil/earth +<br>
>> vegetation (say, grass)<br>
>> - "dirt" could refer to: soil/earth, clay, sand, arguably gravel (it<br>
>> may not be correct but it may be a good idea to clarify this in the<br>
>> wiki)<br>
>><br>
>> So earth, grass, clay, sand, and gravel, are much more specific than<br>
>> ground and dirt, both of which are just slightly more specific than<br>
>> unpaved.<br>
>><br>
>> Could "dirt" involve "mud"?<br>
>><br>
>> Could "ground" involve "rock"? (Similar, but likely flatter, than<br>
>> this: <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/bare_rock" target="_blank">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/bare_rock</a>)<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 4:04 PM, Murry McEntire<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:murry.mcentire@gmail.com">murry.mcentire@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Fernando Trebien<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:fernando.trebien@gmail.com">fernando.trebien@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> It seems that:<br>
>> >> - if a surface can be grass or paved, asphalt, concrete,<br>
>> >> paving_stones, etc., then it seems the only reason to state "the<br>
>> >> surface consists of ground" is if it's unpaved and without vegetation,<br>
>> >> right?<br>
>> >> - the American usage of "dirt" (as in "your car will get dirty") is a<br>
>> >> broad description for 3 more specific values: earth, gravel and<br>
>> >> compacted (different from loose gravel or soil)<br>
>> >><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Ground has multiple meanings some of which are very broad. When speaking of<br>
>> > "I walk the ground", "breaking ground" (as in construction or farming),<br>
>> > "above ground", or "below ground"; it would seem to fit the Oxford<br>
>> > definition of: the solid surface of the earth (world). The dictionary also<br>
>> > gives a definition of ground as a generic term to be qualified, such as<br>
>> > "marshy ground". (And to muddle things, when you think it might mean a<br>
>> > natural surface - the Oxford gives the (British) definition of "the floor of<br>
>> > a room".)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Upon seeing surface=ground for a road, my first reaction is to wonder what<br>
>> > is meant by that? Upon pondering, it is a land surface of the world that is<br>
>> > not raised or improved but may be worn and could be almost any natural<br>
>> > surface which may include ruts through vegetation.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Of course I could ponder more and give another dozen definitions; many<br>
>> > conflicting.<br>
>> > "Ground" is a poor term because it has so many similar, but still different<br>
>> > meanings (very ambiguous) when used to describe a surface; with its most<br>
>> > common meaning being very general and not describing the material of the<br>
>> > surface.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As to American usage of "dirt", the example is poor -- if you stick with the<br>
>> > noun, not the related adjective, saying "your pants have dirt on them" would<br>
>> > likely be interpreted as loam, clay, soil, or the like; not gravel. To me, a<br>
>> > "dirt road" is most often a natural soil (clay, loam, sand, etc.). It may be<br>
>> > compacted or graded. I would refer to a road surfaced with gravel as a<br>
>> > "gravel road".<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
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>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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<br>
<br>
</div></div><div class="im HOEnZb">--<br>
Fernando Trebien<br>
<a href="tel:%2B55%20%2851%29%209962-5409" value="+555199625409">+55 (51) 9962-5409</a><br>
<br>
"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)<br>
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)<br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Dave Swarthout<br>Homer, Alaska<br>Chiang Mai, Thailand<br>Travel Blog at <a href="http://dswarthout.blogspot.com" target="_blank">http://dswarthout.blogspot.com</a></div>
</div>