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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-04-04 17:35, Pieren wrote :<br>
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cite="mid:CAPT3zJp+4ozWRGZL3eEa+Xw1yYbOWqOT1xL9V9A41XfapBPuDg@mail.gmail.com"
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<pre wrap="">On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Nelson A. de Oliveira <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:naoliv@gmail.com"><naoliv@gmail.com></a> wrote:
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<pre wrap="">On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 10:54 AM, fly <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lowflight66@googlemail.com"><lowflight66@googlemail.com></a> wrote:
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<pre wrap="">If it is accepted, I gonna hange the wiki accordingly and gonna ask a
for validator checks in JOSM, as we have more than 100,000 ways with
this tag.
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<pre wrap="">Basically I agree with the current text of
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit">http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit</a> (except that I don't
agree to use it on ways).
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As I understood, the "noexit=yes" means "this way is a cul-de-sac".
What is unclear if the tag is on the last node or on the way itself ?
It is still a cul-de-sac...
It seems that 40% of the "noexit=yes" tags are on ways and are
understandable by their contributors but 100% of the persons writing
on this thread do not understand what 40% of the contributors do ...
So, instead of trying to change 40% of the contributors with wiki
fiddling and josm obscure validations, you should try to open a bit
your mind and accept that contributors can supply the same information
in different ways (or nodes ;-). Stay open like "Open"StreetMap ;-)
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In the survey I made before, I tried in vain indeed to understand
what the contributors mean with most of the noexit=yes tags they
add. A dead end is, at either end of a way, a node that is not
connected to any other allowed or usable way. It's quite visible on
any map and it's what the GPS routers understand the best. What's
the use of adding noexit=yes that do not show on the map and that
the routers ignore?<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22node%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.618538570096796%22%20w%3D%225.619184970855713%22%20n%3D%2250.62584897418278%22%20e%3D%225.632467269897461%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E">Here
are some noexit=yes on nodes</a>. Why are a few dead ends tagged
and the others generally not? What is its meaning <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/239040172">at the steps</a>?
That cars cannot use the steps or that it's a dead end for
pedestrian too? What does it mean in the middle of <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/58297735">rue des Crahlis</a>?
That the main street cannot be reached from the end or the opposite?
Etc.<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22way%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.66839555058174%22%20w%3D%225.717890262603759%22%20n%3D%2250.67569820203223%22%20e%3D%225.731172561645508%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E">Here
are some noexit=yes tags on ways</a>. What information do they
bring? At which end of the ways is the dead end? And, if the answer
id "it's obvious" why is an obvious thing highlighted? Why is
Chienrue and many others not dead ends? Why is <a
href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/91796014">this segment</a>
and the others a dead end? Is it impossible to go round the loop?
Why is <a href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/92843940">this a
dead end</a> and not the stub on the left? Etc.<br>
<br>
Those tags are constant riddles. Yes, please help us understand.<br>
Now, regarding JOSM and Osmose validations, it's not clear what
obscurity you speak about. <br>
<a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:noexit#More_usage_instructions"
title="Talk:Key:noexit">More usage instructions</a>
to which I added a link explains a very clear experiment showing
that JOSM and Osmose make a "way ending near an other way" sanity
test and the noexit page is very clear that the purpose of noexit is
to mute that test (telling that there is no tagging problem). That's
the meaning of noexit, not to tag dead ends generally.<br>
Unfortunately,<br>
1) The noexit page used to say<br>
"Use the noexit at the end of a highway to indicate that there no
possibility to travel further ..."<br>
when the meaning is in reality<br>
"... <b>on the node</b> at ... to indicate when doubtful <b>that
the impossibility</b> to travel further ... <b>is perfectly
normal</b>, ...".<br>
2) contributors used to read only that phrase, not the full
explanation below it, and tagged a useless noexit condition instead
of only confirming doubtful dead ends that are now impossible to
spot in the noexit mass<br>
3) others do "similar and inventive" tagging as I describe next,
looking like other tagging or "better", including noexit traffic
signs not telling where the blocking occurs, not even in what
direction it is.<br>
<br>
The least that can be said is that the rules of noexit=yes were hard
to read and not respected.<br>
I hope this improved a bit.<br>
<br>
I'm in despair because I often read that the wiki is not important,
because it's often ambiguously stated, because contributors say that
no votes are needed, that they can tag as they feel it, even
vandalize other tags, just keeping an eye on what the others are
doing and discussing among themselves. This is particularly harmful
regarding routing (GPS). Contributors say that the public laughs at
the detours of OSM users, I corrected many mistakes letting cars go
where they shouldn't, I even was scolded for correcting obvious
mistakes on the wiki, OSM users laugh at themselves and I was even
laughed at for saying that OSM routing is important.<br>
<br>
The worst is in statements from the Walloon Government, saying,
regarding a possible cooperation or exchange of data with OSM, that
OSM may not be up to their requirements for data quality.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
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<td>André.</td>
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