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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-04-10 15:07, Florian Schäfer
wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5346977F.2040909@schaeferban.de" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
Yes, I agree.<br>
That recommendation was introduced yesterday by Pieren [1]. I
strongly oppose that.<br>
The wiki is not for documenting Tagging-trends, but for
documenting best practices. And I would say, that tagging
noexit=yes on ways is not a best practice.<br>
In my opinion an acceptable comment in the Wiki about tagging
noexit=yes on ways would be "In the past this tag was used on ways
very often (~40%). But because this tagging has several
disadvantages, you should rather tag noexit=yes on nodes.".<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Florian<br>
<br>
[1]:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Anoexit&diff=1015025&oldid=1014495">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Anoexit&diff=1015025&oldid=1014495</a><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
The wiki update seems to have been made on this ground:<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014-04-04 17:35, Pieren wrote :<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAPT3zJp+4ozWRGZL3eEa+Xw1yYbOWqOT1xL9V9A41XfapBPuDg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
It seems that 40% of the "noexit=yes" tags are on ways and are
understandable by their contributors but 100% of the persons
writing
on this thread do not understand what 40% of the contributors do
...
So, instead of trying to change 40% of the contributors with wiki
fiddling and josm obscure validations, you should try to open a
bit
your mind and accept that contributors can supply the same
information
in different ways (or nodes ;-). Stay open like "Open"StreetMap
;-)
Pieren
</blockquote>
<br>
In other words, 40% tags (on ways) can't be wrong. But the problem
is that 99.+% of these correct tags are mistakes and shouldn't even
exist because they do not represent "ways ending near another way",
which are the targets of noexit=yes, but normal dead ends needing
no other tagging.<br>
<br>
Saying that we do not understand what the contributors do is rather
peculiar without asking them what they meant with those tags. I made
no poll, they would probably not answer, but I listened carefully to
those who spoke up here and said why they used ways: "I had not
consulted the wiki [since a long time]", "I was recommended ways by
a friend", "I thought I was tagging the noexit traffic sign". It
seems to me that many people snowball tags in vague similarity with
what they see without much study and that it is really catastrophic
when it pertains to access rules and routing.<br>
<br>
Saying "or on the way <a
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Elements#Way" title="Way"><img
alt="Way" src="cid:part2.09060009.03020108@gmail.com"
srcset="/w/images/thumb/e/ee/Osm_element_way.svg/30px-Osm_element_way.svg.png
1.5x,
/w/images/thumb/e/ee/Osm_element_way.svg/40px-Osm_element_way.svg.png
2x" width="20" height="20"></a> itself" without saying which way
is bizarre and heading for more chaos.<br>
What, in tagging a way, indicates on which end of it is the dead
end? (I asked that already).<br>
What does happen when the way is split or unsplit?<br>
Will a normal contributor understand what he's dealing with if he
sees noexit on what he splits?.<br>
In fact, is it "the way" or is it "the highway"? Just a segment or
more and up to where?<br>
Or is it <a
href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22way%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.66839555058174%22%20w%3D%225.717890262603759%22%20n%3D%2250.67569820203223%22%20e%3D%225.731172561645508%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E">a
whole neighborhood like in this rue Grétry</a> and will those with
the ability to understand what the contributors do conclude that
noexit=yes in fact tagging the noexit and further remove that no no
remark from the wiki too?<br>
<br>
The noexit specification was very weak from the start.<br>
<ul>
<li>instead of something like no_topology_error which is the
subject matter it used the word noexit which is a misleading,
particular consequence of the first<br>
</li>
<li>instead of saying "on the node which is close to the other
way" it said "on the end of the way" and, obviously, not
everyone understands that the end of a way is a node and that a
node indicates where a dead end is but not a way<br>
</li>
<li>instead of saying "... that an otherwise suspicious tag or
road layout preventing passing further than the end of a road is
perfectly intentional" it said "... that there no possibility to
travel further" making believe that it is some sort of required
traffic restriction to be used foa all dead ends</li>
</ul>
<p>That was enough to create perfect, snowballing, collective chaos
and some obviously have fun to add up even more.<br>
</p>
Welcome to Fuzziland.<br>
<br>
I know who is right: our government who say that OSM is not
[necessarily, to remain civil] up to the quality they expect for
data. I fear that this does not favor obtaining data from them.<br>
I was enthusiastic, but I now believe less and less in OSM.<br>
<br>
Please let us ask Osmose to mark as an error any nooexit=yes that is
either not on a node or not close to another way. We could report
that action to that government and others as an example that we at
least try to put our data right.<br>
<br>
Now what about some more fun? Flood tagging noexit=no in the middle
of every street? That wouldn't make 40% but 100% and require a wiki
update by those able to understand contributors, wouldn't it? ;-)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:5346977F.2040909@schaeferban.de" type="cite">
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.04.2014 14:51, schrieb John
Packer:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAE85UitGQUGgrNKRLFjv2ET3muKpTPQ-GbKX8+rw7d5TR_NUhQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Just a quick comment:<br>
</div>
If it's not useful to use it on ways, then I don't think we
should recommend it on nodes <i>or ways</i> on the wiki
page (as it is currently).<br>
</div>
In fact, we should recommend against putting on ways.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-04-09 16:16 GMT-03:00 André
Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>On 2014-04-09 10:47, Pieren wrote :<br>
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at
6:38 PM, André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com"
target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>
<ol>
<li>noexit cannot be used on ways
because that does not show what end
"cannot pass"<br>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>eeh, what "what end" ? Either the highway
line is linked to another highway at both
ends, then "noexit" is a tagging mistake. Or
the highway line is not linked to another
highway on both ends and then the "noexit"
can be helpful (confirming tha'ts really an
isolated highway and not some connection
missing)<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
??? Let's explain in details. We let alone the Xmas
trees.<br>
Assuming real noexit, <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/map.html?Q=%3C%21--%0AThis%20has%20been%20generated%20by%20the%20overpass-turbo%20wizard.%0AThe%20original%20search%20was%3A%0A%E2%80%9Cnoexit%3Dyes%E2%80%9D%0A--%3E%0A%3Cosm-script%20output%3D%22json%22%20timeout%3D%2225%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3Cquery%20type%3D%22way%22%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Chas-kv%20k%3D%22noexit%22%20v%3D%22yes%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%20%20%3Cbbox-query%20s%3D%2250.66839555058174%22%20w%3D%225.717890262603759%22%20n%3D%2250.67569820203223%22%20e%3D%225.731172561645508%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%20%20%3C%2Fquery%3E%0A%20%20%3C%21--%20print%20results%20--%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22body%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Crecurse%20type%3D%22down%22%2F%3E%0A%20%20%3Cprint%20mode%3D%22skeleton%22%20order%3D%22quadtile%22%2F%3E%0A%3C%2Fosm-script%3E"
target="_blank">the typical cases</a> <b>look like</b>
two normal junctions at each way end but one of them <b>is
in fact </b>a dead end.<br>
Why would we tag noexit on the way and request the
beholder to zoom in each end to determine which is dead
if we can tag the information clearly on the end node?
What about T shaped ways where the top way contains 2
dead ends? "gotcha, there were 2"?<br>
Now, instead of a vertical bar, what about a small (or
larger) mesh like <i>rue Grétry</i>: are we going to
tag as dead ends all the segments of the mesh up to the
normal junction even if they're not directly related
with a dead end? And, BTW, are we speaking (in
Subject:) of ways or of roads? Must we apply noexit=yes
to both ways of the same road when we split one? How
would the brave contributor splitting a way cope with
that if he hasn't got the faintest notion of what noexit
is (no blame on him!)?<br>
These are [probably a part of] the questions that raise
and should be settled and that no one advocating noexit
on ways mentioned.<br>
Frankly, noexit on nodes (as designed) is much more
logical and simple (than on ways, of course).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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