<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Just like everybody else I started several years ago by adding source tags on the objects themselves.<br></div><div><br>The whole reason why the imports list says source tags belong on the changeset has something to do with an import of millions of buildings in France, each and every one with:<br>
<br></div>source=cadastre-dgi-fr source : Direction Générale des Impôts - Cadastre. Mise à jour : 2013<br><br></div>To avoid this kind of clutter in the future, I read all the time on that list source tags should go on the changesets and I agree, even if it complicates things a bit. Having the source on the objects doesn't work either, anyway.<br>
<br></div><div>If you insist on putting them on the objects, take the prepared osm file. Select all objects, and add the source tag you like. For a detailed description on how to do so, see my previous message. Apparently things seem too complicated or unwieldy when described in too much detail.<br>
<br></div><div>Don't expect other people to do so as well.<br><br></div><div>OFF topic, sorry...<br></div><div><br></div><div>Since not all the stops will have source tags, another system will be needed to know where there is still work to be done.<br>
<br>This is not very complicated. Every bus/tram stop has a ref. Compare the refs, compare the other tags. If not present, the object is still new. If the other tags differ, the object needs updating, either upstream or downstream.<br>
<br></div><div>I do have a system in place which does this. The whole import process is still in a setup phase, which is why you didn't find information about it on that French page yet. Anyway, once the upstream data and the data from an Overpass Query is in a PostGIS DB, it's not very hard to analyse it to one's heart content and create reports for the wiki with clickable links so they can be opened with JOSM or Merkaartor by remote control.<br>
<br></div><div>Jo<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-30 15:44 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div>Hi,<br>
<br>
Let us notice that, unlike my message, your replies do not comment
the <b>reasons</b> for source tags location.<br>
I say:<br>
<ul>
<li>the wiki instructions say to put sources in the objects</li>
<li>it needs fumbling to see changeset sources (is it fair to
the author?)</li>
<li>only source in objects can be used in overpass queries<br>
</li>
<li>it's a user hassle having to split his changes so that the
objects correspond to source</li>
<li>seen otherwise, it's attaching the source to the object or
to a mixed bag container</li>
</ul>
Starting from the wiki sentence I commented, the reason for
changeset sources is that other persons do it.<br>
This is, of course not a valid reason unless saying why they do it
and if it is appropriate.<br>
I seem to read that those persons live in the imports list.<br>
<br>
It is conceivable that a bulk import use changeset sources if
their visibility and queriability is unimportant.<br>
Bulk imports are one shot operations that do not involve general
mappers and are a thing done afterwards.<br>
<br>
Isolated changes and operations like BusCo <b>do</b> involve the
general mappers.<br>
The BusCo operation is <b>not</b> a one shot import but is
providing a BusCo.osm file that contains the data for general
mappers to copy, correct and update OSM with manually. Work
already done is, now and in future updates, expunged from
BusCo.osm and the obvious way to do that is to put a source=BusCo
yyyy-mm in its objects. overpass will select objects having found
their way to OSM and they will be deleted by ID from BusCo.osm.<br>
Regarding a DB size argument, the overhead of multiple split
changes makes the changeset sources more space consuming.<br>
<br>
Other comments inline...<br>
<br>
On 2014-06-26 18:17, Jo wrote :<br>
</div><div class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>I've been reading import proposals on the
imports list for a while now and the
recommendation I keep seeing there is to add
source tags on the changesets, which is what I
started since several months now. So now that I'm
preparing the osm file for BusCo, I'd prefer to
simply add the instruction to the importers to add
source on the changeset upon uploading, instead of
adding it to each and every of 30000 objects and
that's only for half of a small country. On the
northern side there are another 400000.<br>
<br>
</div>
Of course, if the person performing the import wants
to add source to all the objects they add they can
simply do Ctrl-a to select all objects, add
source=whatever and save the file after downloading
it.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
That is suggesting that every user did it a different way and making
sure that an overpass query will not be able to use that data.
Inserting source=BusCo 2014-4 in the BusCo.osm is exactly the
opposite.<div class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>What I'd suggest to do to make it clear to which
object a source tag from the changeset belongs is,
transfer the stops from the calculated layer to the
working layer, give them all a nudge to where they
belong and change the surrounding objects according to
the aerial imagery. Then when done, do:<br>
<br>
</div>
Ctrl-f<br>
</div>
modified highway=bus_stop<br>
<br>
</div>
then Upload selection, with source=TEC, Bing2011<br>
<br>
</div>
Then perform a general upload for all the rest with
source=Bing2011<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Those who have understood, please raise a hand.<br>
Alternatively:<br>
- put source=BusCo 2014-4 in the object the users copy from the
BusCo.osm file (or its tags if the object already exists)<br>
- overpass query "source=BusCo 2014-4 ...", get their ref ID and
used to expunge done work from BusCo.osm
<div class=""><blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>My preference is to not add a date to TEC, it will always
be the latest version that was available when the upload was
performed anyway.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Your preferences are not the only ones.<div class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>There are other ways to check whether a stop needs to be
updated (comparison with current data downloaded with Overpass
API) This procedure is already in place, with output going to
a wiki page, with links that can be clicked in a convenient
way to edit with JOSM remote control.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
If the BusCo data needs corrections, the OSM data could be different
and right and the update could be undetected.<br>
By definition, the source=BusCo 2014-4 method is reliable.<br>
This cooperator is perfectly astounded to read the last phrase here
for the first time and to find <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC#Indiquer_la_source" target="_blank">no
mention of it here</a>.<div class=""><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Jo<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-26 14:21 GMT+02:00 Dan S <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:danstowell+osm@gmail.com" target="_blank">danstowell+osm@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-26 12:44 GMT+01:00
André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:
<div> <br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Hi, I
wonder if <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source" target="_blank">this phrase without an
explanation link</a> contains appropriate
instructions (or just press news):<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><b>Since the
introduction of changesets these tags are
often added as <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset" title="Changeset" target="_blank">changeset</a>
tags rather than in the features themselves.</b></blockquote>
It sounds like ("rather than") source tags in
objects must now be replaced by source tags in
changesets.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Hi Andre,<br>
<br>
The sentence says changeset tags are "often" used in
preference, and in your restatement you have
converted "often" to "must now be replaced by". That
is a massive difference, and I feel you've misread.
I think the sentence in the wiki strikes the correct
balance.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
I have no understanding problem. But that phrase has a meaning
problem.<br>
Normally, these pages contain instructions how to tag and not a
chronicle of the taggers' doings.<br>
So, according to the above, it might say that, if of very limited
importance, source tags can be put on changeset if it's a bulk and
one shot import. Not let believe that it's a general case. A link
to "more information" is always welcome as you can see.<br>
Please correct it.<br>
BTW, I don't feel JOSM>File>Upload appropriate: asking without
any explanation for changes that are not bulk an apparently single
source when there may be a dozen objects with possibly several
sources each. <br><div class="">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> While doing
so may be appropriate to for huge bulk imports,
I don't think it's always, even generally, the
case.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>I agree.<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
Try to convince Jo.<div class=""><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Suppose an
osm file built from version 2014_04 of BusCo bus
stops data.<br>
The OSM contributors are invited to copy each
object to OSM and to check the data, esp.
coordinates.<br>
Should:<br>
<ul>
<li>this file's objects contain source=BusCo
2014-04 (ISO date)<br>
</li>
<li>or the contributor be requested to add
that tag to the changesets for each and
every update</li>
</ul>
<p>In the first case, the tagging will be done
without mistakes and the source will be very
apparent on the main OSM Web map not only for
the reader to see but also for overpass to
filter which data belongs to BusCo and even
which is not yet at the latest update.<br>
</p>
<p>In the mistake prone, second case, the mapper
will be asked to force himself in different
updates for BusCo and for other necessary
updates that he will inevitably meet in the
process, and the net result of that hassle
will be a misplaced source tag with regard to
visibility and overpass.<br>
</p>
<p>Which is the best method? Or is there another
one? <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>I personally would say that your changeset source
tags should only list the sources that have been
used to make the changes you have made. In other
words, your option 2 shouldn't be recommended. In
the case you give, I would recommend to leave object
source tags as they are, and add changeset tags
listing any extra sources that the contributor used
for their changes. I know this feels odd because the
"total" source of the OSM data ends up split between
object and changeset, but I think it's acceptable
way to progress, and it definitely remains possible
for a machine ot calculate the "total sources list".<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p> </p>
I think that changeset source tagging is only
appropriate to mechanical imports and that the
above phrase should say so or link to some
reading that does.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>I disagree. When I do edits using a single
source, it makes a lot of sense to put the source
tag on the changeset. When I do edits using multiple
sources, it makes a lot of sense to put the source
tags on the objects.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> It seems
strange to have to split updates one per object
so that the correct source tags are present on
each when they could equivalently and more
appropriately be on the object itself.<br>
Typical, compared to the variety of object
source tags format, is this scarce instruction
in <a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset" title="Changeset" target="_blank">changeset</a>:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<ul>
<li> <tt style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap" dir="ltr"><a href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source" title="Key:source" target="_blank">source</a>=*</tt>
– specify the source for a group of edits
</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>
Typically, "source for" does not say "source of"
what. Of the objects or of the edits as a whole
import?<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>Good spot. So the text needs improving. I've
edited the sentence to try and improve it. Obviously
I've edited it using my own understanding of the
consensus idea of the tag, so if I'm wrong let's
just keep improving it :)<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
<span><font color="#888888">
<div>Dan</div>
</font></span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
</font></span></div>
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