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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
      <br>
      A short summary of my thoughts and a reply.<br>
      <br>
      source:XXX=* describes an object attribute, not a change
      attribute, and should hence be an object tag.<br>
      To benefit from overpass queries based on source:XXX=*, it <b>must</b>
      be an object tag.<br>
      Forcing mappers to split changes so that each part has appropriate
      source tags and to repeat the same source tags for different
      versions is a real hassle and is no improvement at all over object
      tags.<br>
      <br>
      A bulk import totally complete in one operation may put a <b>confidential</b>
      source in changeset, but...<br>
      <br>
      In the example case of a set of objects being checked and copied
      by mappers from a BusCo-yyyy-mm.osm file to update OSM, it is
      necessary that the copied objects contain a copied source tag
      containing the date yyyy-mm of the new version. Let's call this
      witness the <b>update marker.</b> By querying the update marker
      with that date, overpass can build the list of objects that are
      already mapper-processed and that can be expunged from the
      BusCo-yyyy-mm.osm remaining-to-do-file.<br>
      <br>
      Replies inline...<br>
      <br>
      On 2014-06-30 18:40, Jo wrote :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>Just like everybody else I started several years ago by
              adding source tags on the objects themselves.<br>
            </div>
            <div><br>
              The whole reason why the imports list says source tags
              belong on the changeset has something to do with an import
              of millions of buildings in France, each and every one
              with:<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            source=cadastre-dgi-fr source : Direction Générale des
            Impôts - Cadastre. Mise à jour : 2013<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          To avoid this kind of clutter in the future, I read all the
          time on that list source tags should go on the changesets and
          I agree, even if it complicates things a bit. </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    The number of bus stops in Wallonia is much much less than the
    houses and other features of France.<br>
    They're even a tiny fraction of the other source tags that the
    mappers must use in the same region.<br>
    Once again, if the French Cadastre don't mind a confidential source
    mention, the answer is in my previous message: a tagset source is
    all-right for a bulk, robotized, one shot import import, thing done,
    OSM update, but not for BusCo piecewise, mapper-made, update needing
    a marker.<br>
    <br>
    Only by curiosity:  1000 × that source=... line compression ratio: 
    zip: 262, bz2: 1600, xz: 2718 !!!<br>
    I've seen ADN like Y1 Y2 Y3 Y2 Y3 Y1 on the French border with ways
    more recent than their nodes ;-)<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Having the source on the objects doesn't work either,
          anyway.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    It does work and it's the good way to achieve what's wanted.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>If you insist on putting them on the objects, take the
          prepared osm file. Select all objects, and add the source tag
          you like. For a detailed description on how to do so, see my
          previous message. Apparently things seem too complicated or
          unwieldy when described in too much detail.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    No need to explain me how to do that, I made a complete osm file
    myself.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>Don't expect other people to do so as well.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    That is indeed the worst way.  Or the best way to have missing or
    unrecognizable source tags.<br>
    That is indeed why that tag must be copied from the *.osm source
    file like said in my previous message. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>OFF topic, sorry...<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Since not all the stops will have source tags, another
          system will be needed to know where there is still work to be
          done.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    ???<br>
    That is indeed why that tag must be copied from the *.osm source
    file like said in my previous message. <br>
    Should some mapper somehow fail to copy the update marker, the bus
    stop will remain in to-do state in the osm file and the problem will
    be spotted that way.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>This is not very complicated. Every bus/tram stop has a
          ref. Compare the refs, compare the other tags. If not present,
          the object is still new. If the other tags differ, the object
          needs updating, either upstream or downstream.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Once again, what I said is not very complicated indeed.<br>
    If some OSM tag and the corresponding *.osm tag differ, we cannot
    determine if it is because the tag was not copied or because the
    *.osm data is incorrect and the mapper made a correction of it.<br>
    Hence, the update marker is necessary in the object tags to witness
    that the update was processed.<br>
    That doesn't prevent checking mandatory equality of, for example,
    the "ref", but data like the name of the stop is subject to user
    correction.<br>
    <br>
    If all the new incoming tags match the OSM tags, and moreover if
    they match the previous update, one can sensibly say that the
    incoming update may be expunged and only the marker automatically
    updated.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>I do have a system in place which does this. The whole
          import process is still in a setup phase, which is why you
          didn't find information about it on that French page yet.
          Anyway, once the upstream data and the data from an Overpass
          Query is in a PostGIS DB, it's not very hard to analyse it to
          one's heart content and create reports for the wiki with
          clickable links so they can be opened with JOSM or Merkaartor
          by remote control.<br>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    If I continue to like to make quality contribution, I'll be eager to
    see that. I congratulate you in advance.<br>
    But remember the source=BusCo yyyy-mm tag, else your system will hit
    you in the back.<br>
    <br>
    Best regards,<br>
    <br>
    <table>
      <tbody>
        <tr>
          <td>André.</td>
        </tr>
      </tbody>
    </table>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJ6DwMDe16HKTdYCpfsyGPM8fUz_UZyU5HxL2mSsg+tMFE0W5Q@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div>Jo<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-30 15:44 GMT+02:00 André Pirard
          <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com" target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
              <div>Hi,<br>
                <br>
                Let us notice that, unlike my message, your replies do
                not comment the <b>reasons</b> for source tags
                location.<br>
                I say:<br>
                <ul>
                  <li>the wiki instructions say to put sources in the
                    objects</li>
                  <li>it needs fumbling to see changeset sources (is it
                    fair to the author?)</li>
                  <li>only source in objects can be used in overpass
                    queries<br>
                  </li>
                  <li>it's a user hassle having to split his changes so
                    that the objects correspond to source</li>
                  <li>seen otherwise, it's attaching the source to the
                    object or to a mixed bag container</li>
                </ul>
                Starting from the wiki sentence I commented, the reason
                for changeset sources is that other persons do it.<br>
                This is, of course not a valid reason unless saying why
                they do it and if it is appropriate.<br>
                I seem to read that those persons live in the imports
                list.<br>
                <br>
                It is conceivable that a bulk import use changeset
                sources if their visibility and queriability is
                unimportant.<br>
                Bulk imports are one shot operations that do not involve
                general mappers and are a thing done afterwards.<br>
                <br>
                Isolated changes and operations like BusCo <b>do</b>
                involve the general mappers.<br>
                The BusCo operation is <b>not</b> a one shot import but
                is providing a BusCo.osm file that contains the data for
                general mappers to copy, correct and update OSM with
                manually. Work already done is, now and in future
                updates, expunged from BusCo.osm and the obvious way to
                do that is to put a source=BusCo yyyy-mm in its objects.
                overpass will select objects having found their way to
                OSM and they will be deleted by ID from BusCo.osm.<br>
                Regarding a DB size argument, the overhead of multiple
                split changes makes the changeset sources more space
                consuming.<br>
                <br>
                Other comments inline...<br>
                <br>
                On 2014-06-26 18:17, Jo wrote :<br>
              </div>
              <div class="">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>I've been reading import proposals
                                  on the imports list for a while now
                                  and the recommendation I keep seeing
                                  there is to add source tags on the
                                  changesets, which is what I started
                                  since several months now. So now that
                                  I'm preparing the osm file for BusCo,
                                  I'd prefer to simply add the
                                  instruction to the importers to add
                                  source on the changeset upon
                                  uploading, instead of adding it to
                                  each and every of 30000 objects and
                                  that's only for half of a small
                                  country. On the northern side there
                                  are another 400000.<br>
                                  <br>
                                </div>
                                Of course, if the person performing the
                                import wants to add source to all the
                                objects they add they can simply do 
                                Ctrl-a to select all objects, add
                                source=whatever and save the file after
                                downloading it.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              That is suggesting that every user did it a different way
              and making sure that an overpass query will not be able to
              use that data.  Inserting source=BusCo 2014-4 in the
              BusCo.osm is exactly the opposite.
              <div class=""><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <div>What I'd suggest to do to make it clear
                              to which object a source tag from the
                              changeset belongs is, transfer the  stops
                              from the calculated layer to the working
                              layer, give them all a nudge to where they
                              belong and change the surrounding objects
                              according to the aerial imagery. Then when
                              done, do:<br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            Ctrl-f<br>
                          </div>
                          modified highway=bus_stop<br>
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        then Upload selection, with source=TEC, Bing2011<br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      Then perform a general upload for all the rest
                      with source=Bing2011<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              Those who have understood, please raise a hand.<br>
              Alternatively:<br>
              - put source=BusCo 2014-4 in the object the users copy
              from the BusCo.osm file (or its tags if the object already
              exists)<br>
              - overpass query "source=BusCo 2014-4 ...", get their ref
              ID and used to expunge done work from BusCo.osm
              <div class="">
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div>My preference is to not add a date to TEC, it
                      will always be the latest version that was
                      available when the upload was performed anyway.<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              Your preferences are not the only ones.
              <div class=""><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div> </div>
                    <div>There are other ways to check whether a stop
                      needs to be updated (comparison with current data
                      downloaded with Overpass API) This procedure is
                      already in place, with output going to a wiki
                      page, with links that can be clicked in a
                      convenient way to edit with JOSM remote control.<br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              If the BusCo data needs corrections, the OSM data could be
              different and right and the update could be undetected.<br>
              By definition, the source=BusCo 2014-4 method is reliable.<br>
              This cooperator is perfectly astounded to read the last
              phrase here for the first time and to find <a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC#Indiquer_la_source"
                target="_blank">no mention of it here</a>.
              <div class=""><br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div> </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    Jo<br>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-26 14:21 GMT+02:00
                      Dan S <span dir="ltr"><<a
                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:danstowell+osm@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank">danstowell+osm@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
                        0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                        solid;padding-left:1ex">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div class="gmail_extra">
                            <div class="gmail_quote">2014-06-26 12:44
                              GMT+01:00 André Pirard <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com"
                                  target="_blank">A.Pirard.Papou@gmail.com</a>></span>:
                              <div> <br>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
                                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                                    Hi,  I wonder if <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source"
                                      target="_blank">this phrase
                                      without an explanation link</a>
                                    contains appropriate instructions
                                    (or just press news):<br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite"><b>Since the
                                        introduction of changesets these
                                        tags are often added as <a
                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
                                          href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset"
                                          title="Changeset"
                                          target="_blank">changeset</a>
                                        tags rather than in the features
                                        themselves.</b></blockquote>
                                    It sounds like ("rather than")
                                    source tags in objects must now be
                                    replaced by source tags in
                                    changesets.<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>Hi Andre,<br>
                                <br>
                                The sentence says changeset tags are
                                "often" used in preference, and in your
                                restatement you have converted "often"
                                to "must now be replaced by". That is a
                                massive difference, and I feel you've
                                misread. I think the sentence in the
                                wiki strikes the correct balance.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              I have no understanding problem.  But that phrase has a
              meaning problem.<br>
              Normally, these pages contain instructions how to tag and
              not a chronicle of the taggers' doings.<br>
              So, according to the above, it might say that, if of very
              limited importance, source tags can be put on changeset if
              it's a bulk and one shot import. Not let believe that it's
              a general case.  A link to "more information" is always
              welcome as you can see.<br>
              Please correct it.<br>
              BTW, I don't feel JOSM>File>Upload appropriate:
              asking without any explanation for changes that are not
              bulk an apparently single source when there may be a dozen
              objects with possibly several sources each.  <br>
              <div class="">
                <blockquote type="cite">
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                              <div><br>
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                                    While doing so may be appropriate to
                                    for huge bulk imports, I don't think
                                    it's always, even generally, the
                                    case.<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>I agree.<br>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
              Try to convince Jo.
              <div class=""><br>
                <blockquote type="cite">
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                    <div class="gmail_quote">
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                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <div> <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div> </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
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                                  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                                    Suppose an osm file built from
                                    version 2014_04 of BusCo bus stops
                                    data.<br>
                                    The OSM contributors are invited to
                                    copy each object to OSM and to check
                                    the data, esp. coordinates.<br>
                                    Should:<br>
                                    <ul>
                                      <li>this file's objects contain
                                        source=BusCo 2014-04 (ISO date)<br>
                                      </li>
                                      <li>or the contributor be
                                        requested to add that tag to the
                                        changesets for each and every
                                        update</li>
                                    </ul>
                                    <p>In the first case, the tagging
                                      will be done without mistakes and
                                      the source will be very apparent
                                      on the main OSM Web map not only
                                      for the reader to see but also for
                                      overpass to filter which data
                                      belongs to BusCo and even which is
                                      not yet at the latest update.<br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>In the mistake prone, second
                                      case, the mapper will be asked to
                                      force himself in different updates
                                      for BusCo and for other necessary
                                      updates that he will inevitably
                                      meet in the process, and the net
                                      result of that hassle will be a
                                      misplaced source tag with regard
                                      to visibility and overpass.<br>
                                    </p>
                                    <p>Which is the best method? Or is
                                      there another one? <br>
                                    </p>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                              <div>I personally would say that your
                                changeset source tags should only list
                                the sources that have been used to make
                                the changes you have made. In other
                                words, your option 2 shouldn't be
                                recommended. In the case you give, I
                                would recommend to leave object source
                                tags as they are, and add changeset tags
                                listing any extra sources that the
                                contributor used for their changes. I
                                know this feels odd because the "total"
                                source of the OSM data ends up split
                                between object and changeset, but I
                                think it's acceptable way to progress,
                                and it definitely remains possible for a
                                machine ot calculate the "total sources
                                list".<br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
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                                    <p> </p>
                                    I think that changeset source
                                    tagging is only appropriate to
                                    mechanical imports and that the
                                    above phrase should say so or link
                                    to some reading that does.<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>I disagree. When I do edits using a
                                single source, it makes a lot of sense
                                to put the source tag on the changeset.
                                When I do edits using multiple sources,
                                it makes a lot of sense to put the
                                source tags on the objects.<br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div> </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0 0 0
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                                  solid;padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                                    It seems strange to have to split
                                    updates one per object so that the
                                    correct source tags are present on
                                    each when they could equivalently
                                    and more appropriately be on the
                                    object itself.<br>
                                    Typical, compared to the variety of
                                    object source tags format, is this
                                    scarce instruction in <a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset"
                                      title="Changeset" target="_blank">changeset</a>:<br>
                                    <blockquote type="cite">
                                      <ul>
                                        <li> <tt
                                            style="background-color:#dde;white-space:pre-wrap"
                                            dir="ltr"><a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source"
                                              title="Key:source"
                                              target="_blank">source</a>=*</tt>
                                          – specify the source for a
                                          group of edits </li>
                                      </ul>
                                    </blockquote>
                                    Typically, "source for" does not say
                                    "source of" what.  Of the objects or
                                    of the edits as a whole import?<br>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>Good spot. So the text needs
                                improving. I've edited the sentence to
                                try and improve it. Obviously I've
                                edited it using my own understanding of
                                the consensus idea of the tag, so if I'm
                                wrong let's just keep improving it :)<span><font
                                    color="#888888"><br>
                                    <br>
                                  </font></span></div>
                              <span><font color="#888888">
                                  <div>Dan</div>
                                </font></span></div>
                            <br>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </div>
              <span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
                  <table>
                    <tbody>
                      <tr>
                        <td>André.</td>
                      </tr>
                    </tbody>
                  </table>
                </font></span><br>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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