<div dir="ltr">I struggle with this issue as well.<div>In Belgium we have a lot of "tavernes" (taverns) or "brasseries" (similar, but the word is translated from French in this case). The are very restaurant like, seated-service, quality food. </div><div>Taverns also serve ice creams, sweet pancakes etc outside lunch hours. Furthermore, they also only serve drinks, unlike restaurants. They are really places where families goes on a Sunday afternoon, since they often have a playground for children as well (at least in the countryside). Restaurants only serve meals, it is not possible to go there and only have a drink.</div><div>Should we tag the taverns with amenity=pub, food=yes or restaurant ?<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Then you also have "cafés", as in french meaning of the word. They have to be tagged as pubs. (confusing for a non-English mapper:-) ) They only serve drinks and no food. (typically)</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Greg Troxel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gdt@ir.bbn.com" target="_blank">gdt@ir.bbn.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Richard Welty <<a href="mailto:rwelty@averillpark.net">rwelty@averillpark.net</a>> writes:<br>
<br>
> the common rule of thumb is counter service vs. table service. even<br>
> so, there are occasional grey areas (e.g., at Hardees you order at<br>
> the counter but they deliver to your table, still fast food in my book.)<br>
><br>
> and it produces slightly quirky results, for example the most excellent<br>
> deli Gershon's in Schenectady has table service but the most excellent<br>
> deli Maurice's in Albany has counter service. they are otherwise very<br>
> similar restaurants. it kind of makes you wish we didn't have fast_food<br>
> and instead had detailed tags, as another suggested.<br>
<br>
(am way behind on my mail, and picked a semi-random note to reply to)<br>
<br>
As I see it, there are a few issues brought out by this discussion. My<br>
$0.02:<br>
<br>
what people think "restaurant" means in English is not really relevant<br>
to fast_food vs restaurant. Just because McDonald's meets wikipedia's<br>
definition of restaurant does not make amenity=restaurant appropriate<br>
- OSM has specific guidelines to split places that sell food into<br>
multiple tags.<br>
<br>
Fundamentally, fast_food is a quality/value judgement. It implies a<br>
degree of industrialization in the process. Ordering at a counter and<br>
having it handed to you **more quickly than it should have taken to<br>
prepare it** is a huge clue.<br>
<br>
amenity=restaurant implies that you sit at a table, order from<br>
waitstaff, and have food delivered, always. This is fairly easy.<br>
<br>
amenity=cafe is a place where it isn't as formal as restaurant, but it<br>
has actual food, and typically one will order at a counter and either<br>
you get called to pick it up later, or it will be delivered, often to<br>
your table identified by some number that you were handed when you<br>
ordered. "actual food" is key here, and yes that's a value judgement<br>
at the boundary.<br>
<br>
In Richard's example, I would put a nice deli with counter service as<br>
cafe. That's not a dig, it's saying that it doesn't have seated<br>
service. I expect high-quality food from something tagged amenity=cafe.<br>
<br>
Note that amenity=restaurant does not imply high-end food. It only<br>
implies more or less that there is seated service and almost but not<br>
quite implies that food is prepared (final steps anyway) to order, not<br>
ahead of time on speculation that someone will appear.<br>
<br>
The really hard line is cafe vs fast_food. The true test is whether<br>
people who appreciate food quality are willing to go (cafe) other than<br>
under circumstances when they feel they really have to save time<br>
(fast_food). There is no exact objective test for this difference. But<br>
if it's a chain, or if foodie types look down on it, it's likely<br>
fast_food. If it's a one-off and people think the food is good, it's<br>
cafe. I realize that doesn't fit the OSM objectively-verifiable notion,<br>
but that's how the world really is.<br>
<br>
The real issue is that what people who use maps want to know is whether<br>
a place has decent food or factory food. That's IMHO why the cafe vs<br>
fast_food distinction exists.<br>
<br>
Another way to look at the issue is that local mappers should decide.<br>
I've been tagging places as fast_food, cafe and restaurant. I'm not<br>
aware of anyone changing my tags or messaging me about the choice. So I<br>
don't see much actual dispute.<br>
<br>
<us-centric-content><br>
<br>
For me, the only difficult call has been Starbucks, which I couldn't<br>
remember but I looked and I did call it cafe, vs an indie coffeeshop,<br>
which I definitely would put as cafe. Dunkin Donuts is fast_food, as is<br>
Chipotle, Qdoba and Subway. A one-off breakfast place that isn't super<br>
nice (typical 0530 opening omelette shop) I still put as restaurant<br>
because you are seated and have waitstaff.<br>
<br>
Aside from Starbucks this has been easy. If someone challenged me that<br>
Starbuck's should be fast food because it's really hard to objectively<br>
tell from Dunkin Donuts I would probably concede quickly. Maybe I'll<br>
change the one I tagged after this note anyway :-) Other things I would<br>
need to hear a persuasive argument why I was wrong.<br>
<br>
</><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>