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    When I see 'facultatif' in French, I normally translate this as
    'optional' in English. You will find 'facultative' in the Oxford
    English Dictionary, but it will be a meaningless word to most
    English people.<br>
    <br>
    Steve<br>
    <br>
    On 14/12/2014 10:35, Ulrich Lamm wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:79A8F78E-08EB-4064-9CBC-551F57A68E77@t-online.de"
      type="cite"><br>
      <div>
        <div>Am 13.12.2014 um 10:56 schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="mailto:tagging-request@openstreetmap.org">tagging-request@openstreetmap.org</a>:</div>
        <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
        <blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span"
            style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica;
            font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
            normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal;
            orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px;
            text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
            word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
            -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
            -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
            -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
            0px; font-size: medium; ">Message: 4<br>
            Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 16:14:29 +0000<br>
            From: SomeoneElse <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:lists@atownsend.org.uk">lists@atownsend.org.uk</a>><br>
            To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org">tagging@openstreetmap.org</a><br>
            Subject: Re: [Tagging] Survey of street/road layouts and
            their tagging<br>
            Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:548B1465.60509@atownsend.org.uk">548B1465.60509@atownsend.org.uk</a>><br>
            Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed<br>
            <br>
            On 12/12/2014 13:13, Ulrich Lamm wrote:<br>
            <blockquote type="cite"><br>
            </blockquote>
            <blockquote type="cite">See<span
                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ulamm/Tables_of_street_layouts">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ulamm/Tables_of_street_layouts</a><br>
            </blockquote>
            <blockquote type="cite"><br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
            This could benefit from an explanation of what problem
            you're trying to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            solve here.  The wiki's full of "I think we should tag X
            like Y" pages<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            but without any arguments for a change to motivate mappers
            to change<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            their habits it's not going to happen.<br>
            <br>
            Currently, for example, "obligatory" is used only 40 times,
            and 10 of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            those are "nudism":<br>
            <br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=obligatory#values">http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=obligatory#values</a><br>
            <br>
            Also the mainly biological term "facultative" is used as if
            it's an<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            accepted tag, but there are only 49 uses, in the centre of
            Bremen:<br>
            <br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cycleway=facultative">http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cycleway=facultative</a><br>
            <br>
            (and it's not common English by any stretch of the
            imagination - maybe<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            versions of it are more used in Romance languages where the
            latin root<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
            is more obvious)<br>
            <br>
            Cheers,<br>
            <br>
            Andy<br>
          </span></blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div>
        <div>All tags I've written in purple are innovative. I. e., they
          are an outcome of logical delibaration, not a record of
          frequent practice.</div>
        <div>Even myself I didn't use them before suggesting them.</div>
        <div>But only watching practice, we'll never get a set of
          uneqivocal tools.</div>
        <div>As I've written in the "notes", I have preferred the term
          "obligatory", as it is common in many languages, and it is
          part of the official description of the round blue French
          traffic sign "piste ou bande cyclable obligatoire" =
          "obligatory cycletrack or cycle lane". </div>
        <div>The counterpart (rectangular blue French sign)  is "piste
          ou bande cyclable conseillée et réservée"
          = "advisory-and-reserved cycletrack or cycle lane". There, I
          suggest "facultative" or simply "free" for cycletracks and
          "soft_lane" fpr cycle lanes. That kind of cycletracks (in
          Germany "Radweg ohne Benutzungspflicht", cycletrack-design
          without signpost) may be used only by cyclists, but needn't be
          used by them. The British traffic law has a similar status for
          its <u>strict</u> cycle lanes, called "mandatory", which
          puzzles readers of other native languages, as according to
          dicitionaries "mandatory" is almost synonyme with
          "obligatory".</div>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>I think it doesn't matter if the term "obligatory" or the
        term "facultative" is also used for other than road traffic
        features, unless the other usage would be in contradiction to
        the road traffic use.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Cheers</div>
      <div>Ulrich</div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  
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