<html><head></head><body>I definitely think it's a matter of permission and opening hours, the polygon where this permission apply is secondary, could it be an admin boundary or reserve of some kind. <br>
Let the case where no boundary exists yet in OSM, then map it. <br>
Yves <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">Le 21 octobre 2016 15:45:26 GMT+02:00, Kevin Kenny <kevin.b.kenny+osm@gmail.com> a écrit :<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
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<div class="gmail-m_-2650249023972037628moz-cite-prefix">That's rather a simplistic view. Hunting reserves exist to protect the
land from development so that there will be places where it is possible
to hunt and game available to harvest. The important distinction isn't
the one between 'hunting reserve' and 'wilderness'; it's the one between
'reserve land' and 'suburbia.'
<br />
<br />In most of the conservation lands in my part of the world, hunting is
permitted, even encouraged, because it is necessary to thin the herds.
Since humanity drove the wolf and cougar into extinction in my part of
the world a century and a half ago (and so far will not allow the wolf
to be reintroduced, even in strictly protected wilderness), hunting is
necessary to avoid ecological collapse from overpopulation of the larger
game species, notably the white-tailed deer, the black bear, and local
nonmigratory populations of geese. Most of the hunters that I know
understand very well the value of conservation, and few would say that
hunting reserves exist for the primary purpose of supporting hunting.
<br />
<br />The state not only owns lands for this purpose, but also encourages this
style of management on the part of private landowners. My brother gets
substantial tax breaks on the farm he owns because my family has allowed
it to return to woodland. (It hasn't been farmed since the Dust Bowl
years.) In return, he's required both to refrain from farming it and to
refrain from subdividing or developing. He is permitted the occasional
timber harvest (the plan for which must be approved by a forester) and
to use the land for hunting (he's not much of a hunter, but leases the
hunting rights to a club), fishing, and recreation (a snowmobile/ATV
trail crosses his acreage). Given that the state is compensating him to
conserve his land and practice sustainable forestry, how is his private
preserve not conservation land? Does the fact that people pay the club
to hunt on the club's leaseholds (an area much larger than my brother's
farm) change the nature of my brother's conservation easement?
<br />
<br />His deal with the government is typical. A lot of people get something
out of it. New York City gets better water quality in the Watsonville
reservoir. A few hunters, fishermen, and snowmobilists get a place to
recreate. The National Park Service gets protection of the Delaware
River viewshed. The poor soil that remains is stabilized against further
erosion and gradually rebuilt by the natural processes that have been
going on since it was denuded in the last ice age. Brook trout and shad
find a place to spawn. Several threatened bird species have been sighted
on his property. Most important to him, he can afford the taxes to
continue living in the place. Without the conservation easement, he'd
have been forced to sell to a developer and move back to the city years ago.
<br />
<br />Nature reserves are managed for many purposes, and enjoy greater and
lesser levels of protection. New York is fortunate enough to have them
in abundance. Some are enormous and strictly protected (e.g., High Peaks
Wilderness). Some are tiny (as small as a few city blocks of wetland in
New York City). Some belong to Federal, State and local governments.
Some are in private hands - the International Paper tract in Arietta
township is the largest. (It allows public access for recreation
anywhere that active logging is not taking place, and it takes a
forester's eye to distinguish it from the adjacent Jessup River Wild
Forest.) Some belong to conservancies (and for complicated legal
reasons, sometimes it is convenient for New York to pay conservancies to
acquire and manage land). Some allow only the most passive of activities
(access by foot, ski, and canoe, in terrain that only fit and
experienced outdoor recreationists will tackle). Some restrict only
development and allow motorized recreation, timber harvest, and
low-density habitation.
<br />
<br />All are popularly known as 'nature reserves' of one sort or another. I
daresay that around here, few people can make the distinction, for
instance, between Wilderness Area, Wild Forest, State Forest, State
Wildlife Management Area, and even State Park. To the tourist, they look
identical - they all have the same style of brown-and-gold signs, they
are all open to the public, they are all mostly forested (because that's
the natural state of most land in the local ecosystem), they all belong
to the state and are policed by the rangers, .... The fact that they
are managed for different primary objectives and fall under different
regulatory schemes is secondary - most people deal with the regulation
by following what the signage proclaims. (State Wildlife Management
Area, by the way, is a newer title for what used to be called State Game
Reserves. They are very much hunting preserves.)
<br />
<br />I see 'leisure=nature_reserve" as an interim measure to get something on
the map when its full legalities are not understood, and I also continue
to tag it because otherwise a great many of our public recreation areas
would not appear on the rendered map at all. It's not so much 'tagging
for the renderer' as it is adapting to an imprecise data model while the
world catches up to the more specific one (boundary=protected_area).
Since I ALSO tag with boundary=protected_area (and at least
protect_class and protection_object), I'm supporting the more precise
data model as well. At such time as protected_area is adequately
supported in the rest of the toolchain, I can remove the nature_reserve
tag from areas that are considered inappropriate for it by a simple
mechanical edit based on protect_class.
<br />
<br />If, as you say, this is 'wrong,' then offer a concrete proposal for what
is right - and a concrete plan for making it actually usable.
<br />
<br />I'm not satisfied with the answer that I must wait for the renderer to
catch up. If US mappers had not resorted to nature_reserve tagging for
such entities as US National Forests (even more obviously not 'nature
reserve's by your definition) they would not appear on the map. That
situation has been at an impasse for at least a couple of years. It's in
with a large bucket of rendering change requests that are deferred
because they 'need hstore.' And 'hstore' itself is being intentionally
delayed (so one of the maintainers casually remarked to me) precisely so
that the people who maintain the renderer will not be deluged with
nuisance change requests. Hearing that dispelled my last sense of guilt
at 'tagging for the renderer' in cases where there is no formally
correct tagging that renders.
<br />
<br />I'd rather use tags <span class="gmail-moz-txt-underscore"><span class="gmail-moz-txt-tag">_</span>sensu lato<span class="gmail-moz-txt-tag">_</span></span> and see my work on the map than have
the Adirondack Park disappear from the map because it is not a 'national
park' _sensu stricto._ And in every case where I have 'tagged for the
renderer', I have additional tagging that would enable the finer
distinction to be made moving forward. I render my own maps for the
places that matter most to me, but I'm not tooled up to offer them to
the whole world. That's really the best I have to offer.
<br />
<br />Nobody's reverted it yet. For all that people on this list tell me that
I'm 'wrong,' nobody seems to have a better idea. <br /></div>
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