<div dir="auto"><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe" <<a href="mailto:fl.infosreseaux@gmail.com">fl.infosreseaux@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Warin,<br><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="quoted-text">2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com" target="_blank">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="m_-1006654960532443629gmail-"><br></span>
In Australia;<br>
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.<br></div><div>Here 3-phases for heavy industry : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/@<wbr>45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,<wbr>219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!<wbr>3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!<wbr>2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1</a><br><br></div><div>2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :<br></div><div>From public power grid : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/<wbr>place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-<wbr>Maurienne/@43.830987,4.<wbr>5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.<wbr>85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!<wbr>1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!<wbr>7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!<wbr>1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:<wbr>0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.<wbr>275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1</a><br></div><div>To traction substation : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/<wbr>place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-<wbr>Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.<wbr>5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/<wbr>data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!<wbr>1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!<wbr>7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!<wbr>1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:<wbr>0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.<wbr>275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1</a></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380, 220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz). Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of the system), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the province usually served by electric cooperatives, but the three-wire system is used on areas served by major private electric utilities (Meralco, Visayas Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light and Power, etc.)</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro Manila transit systems only), is rather DC only, fed from the three-phase distribution systems, transformed to the traction voltage, then rectified to DC. No AC traction systems still exists in the Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the future on new lines or mainline electrification.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="quoted-text"><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large .. but it
is unusual and a safety concern, no single room should have more
than one phase. <br>
Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop has a
requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.<br></div></blockquote></div><div>+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while current usage is single phase + neutral pole.<br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto">I concur. Single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) is the primary household distribution systems, while a household customer on an area primarily using single-phase, but requiring three-phase needs a separate transformer, at least the line has the phases required, otherwise, the customer would require the nearby distribution line to have the additional wires and the dedicated transformer, or use a phase converter.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Single-phase supplies by households may be derived from a three-phase line, but a single-phase line may do. The single-phase transformers may have one or two primaries (though one bushing is connected to ground instead on another phase wire and serves as a surge arrestor, like the case of transformers used to provide 220 volt single-phase power in most provinces of the Philippines), but the secondaries may be single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line). Single-phase (line-neutral) may use a transformer with one or two bushings (the latter has the second bushing being a surge arrestor, being connected to ground instead on another primary), but for split-phase (line-neutral-line), the transformer may have one or two primary bushings, but on the case of two bushings, the second one may be connected to another phase or ground.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div> <br></div><div class="quoted-text"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="m_-1006654960532443629gmail-">
</span>
Transformers will have an input voltage and an output voltage,
usually these voltages are different.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Sure, currently voltage=* expects a list with upper voltage;lower voltage.<br></div><div>Or voltage-up and voltage-down can be used. I'm in favor of voltage:primary + voltage:secondary (+ voltage:tertiary if transformer got more than 2 interfaces).<br></div><div>Another proposal will be completed later for this.<br></div><div class="quoted-text"><div> </div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
Most of the time these voltages will be on the lines connected to
the transformer (and the pole) and would be redundant.<br></div></blockquote></div><div>Yes they have to, but a pole can carry several lines or circuits in the same line. If lines/circuits are operated at different voltages, which one will serve the transformer(s) exactly ?<br></div><div>Furthermore, even if a single line is supported by the pole, which side of the transformer is connected to it ?<br></div><div>I'm thinking of a pole carrying a "low voltage" line used for distribution, hosting a transformer at the top of it and the transformer gets its power from an underground "high voltage" cable rising up on the pole itself. Then you'll need to know the voltages of both cable and line AND the voltages of transformer's sides to say the overhead "low voltage" line is fed wheter by the primary or secondary interface.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>It's a bit complex and I see no redundancy here.<br></div><div class="quoted-text"><div> </div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto">On a multi-level pole, the line where the transformer is found may be indicated by a power route relation, if there is. The pole where the transformer is found may be tagged with the transformer role, and it is important on lines with multiple circuits, but on single-circuit lines, it is optional.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"></div><div dir="auto">And for a transformer feeding a low voltage line from a high voltage underground cable rising on the pole (through the pole itself, or on a concrete structure with pipes embedded) I found some instances of it in the Philippines. One example is a pole with three single-phase transformers serving as a three-phase transformer, and the primary comes from underneath.</div><div dir="auto"></div><div dir="auto"> </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="quoted-text"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<br>
Switches ... usually used for isolation.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>Can you elaborate a bit more please ?<br></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">On a pole with two or more levels (i.e. cross-arms), I used two solutions:</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"> 1. Tag the pole-mounted switch with switch=* separated by pipes (|), so, for tagging a switch on the lowest cross-arm of a two-level pole, it will be tagged switch=|mechanical. So, for a switch on the upper cross-arm in the same situation, it is vice versa (i.e. switch=mechanical|)</div><div dir="auto"> 2. On a relation of the line where the switch belongs, tag the pole with the switch role.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>All the best<font color="#888888"><a rel="noreferrer" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging" target="_blank"></a><br><br><br></font></div><font color="#888888"><div>François</div></font></div></div></div></div>
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