<div dir="auto"><div><br><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<div class="m_8254107741908932764moz-cite-prefix">On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel
wrote:<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François
Lacombe" <<a href="mailto:fl.infosreseaux@gmail.com" target="_blank">fl.infosreseaux@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="m_8254107741908932764quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Warin,<br>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_extra">
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<div class="m_8254107741908932764quoted-text">2017-02-13 8:42
GMT+01:00 Warin <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:61sundowner@gmail.com" target="_blank">61sundowner@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="m_8254107741908932764m_-1006654960532443629gmail-"><br>
</span> In Australia;<br>
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.<br>
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<div>Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases
depends on needs.<br>
</div>
<div>Here 3-phases for heavy industry : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%216m1%211e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/@45<wbr>.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,21<wbr>9.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4<wbr>!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!<wbr>7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>2-phases for train traction (2 separate
circuits of 2 phases each) :<br>
</div>
<div>From public power grid : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/pla<wbr>ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurien<wbr>ne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.<wbr>2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!<wbr>1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-<wbr>I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!<wbr>4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0<wbr>x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.2754<wbr>03!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1</a><br>
</div>
<div>To traction substation : <a href="https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=%213m6%211e1%213m4%211s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ%212e0%217i13312%218i6656%214m5%213m4%211s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70%218m2%213d45.275403%214d6.344886%216m1%211e1" target="_blank">https://www.google.fr/maps/pla<wbr>ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurien<wbr>ne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,<wbr>15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!<wbr>1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwS<wbr>RQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!<wbr>1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2a<wbr>e4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.<wbr>344886!6m1!1e1</a></div>
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<div dir="auto">For the Philippines, two or three phases for the
primary are for large commercial customers, but the output, it
is three-phase (220/380, 220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150,
880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz). Households use single-phase,
either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire systems (220/440
volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which is
within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one
phase wire of the system</div>
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Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage. <br>
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years
at an international level. Now they agree that their present
tolerances encompass an agreed range ... that encompasses all those
voltages. <br><div class="quoted-text">
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Meters seem to have varying ways on showing the rated voltages the meter measures, that they may only show RMS voltage or peak-to-peak voltage, or both. On countries using single-phase or split-phase distribution (most of the Americas, and some Asian countries), either the RMS or peak-to-peak are shown on the meter's rated voltage, while on countries primarily using three-phase distribution (usually 230/400 volts), the meter shows only RMS voltage for an ordinary single-phase customer, but on others requiring three-phase for other applications, the meter shows both RMS and peak-to-peak.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And on my mapping work on Philippine power networks, with the RMS voltage being 220 volts, a single-phase transformer may have a single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) secondary. For a single-phase transformer with a single phase secondary, common used by provincial electric cooperatives, I use the RMS voltage of 220 as default, but for a split-phase one, usually in areas served by private utilities, it defaults to 440 volts (peak-to-peak), though the meter used for measuring is rated by the RMS voltage of 220 volts (240 volts on the meter's labels, fortunately, it is within the tolerance of 220-240 volts)</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">And on voltage tolerances, 220 volts is within tolerance of the 220-240 volt range, so does 110 or 120 volts being within the tolerance of the 100-127 volt range.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="quoted-text">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">), depending on location. The two-wire system is
common on the province usually served by electric
cooperatives, but the three-wire system is used on areas
served by major private electric utilities (Meralco, Visayas
Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light and Power,
etc.)</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro
Manila transit systems only), is rather DC only, fed from the
three-phase distribution systems, transformed to the traction
voltage, then rectified to DC. No AC traction systems still
exists in the Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the
future on new lines or mainline electrification.</div>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> A few houses may get
2 phases if their load is very large ..
but it is unusual and a safety concern, no
single room should have more than one
phase. <br>
Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually
where the workshop has a requirement for a
3 phase motor/furnace.<br>
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<div>+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend
to disapear while current usage is single
phase + neutral pole.<br>
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<div dir="auto">I concur. Single-phase (line-neutral) or
split-phase (line-neutral-line) is the primary household
distribution systems, while a household customer on an area
primarily using single-phase, but requiring three-phase needs
a separate transformer, at least the line has the phases
required, otherwise, the customer would require the nearby
distribution line to have the additional wires and the
dedicated transformer, or use a phase converter.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Single-phase supplies by households may be
derived from a three-phase line, but a single-phase line may
do. The single-phase transformers may have one or two
primaries (though one bushing is connected to ground instead
on another phase wire and serves as a surge arrestor, like the
case of transformers used to provide 220 volt single-phase
power in most provinces of the Philippines), but the
secondaries may be single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase
(line-neutral-line). Single-phase (line-neutral) may use a
transformer with one or two bushings (the latter has the
second bushing being a surge arrestor, being connected to
ground instead on another primary), but for split-phase
(line-neutral-line), the transformer may have one or two
primary bushings, but on the case of two bushings, the second
one may be connected to another phase or ground.</div>
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<div> <br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span class="m_8254107741908932764m_-1006654960532443629gmail-"> </span>
Transformers will have an input voltage
and an output voltage, usually these
voltages are different.<br>
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<div>Sure, currently voltage=* expects a list
with upper voltage;lower voltage.<br>
</div>
<div>Or voltage-up and voltage-down can be used.
I'm in favor of voltage:primary +
voltage:secondary (+ voltage:tertiary if
transformer got more than 2 interfaces).<br>
</div>
<div>Another proposal will be completed later
for this.<br>
</div>
<div class="m_8254107741908932764quoted-text">
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> Most of the time
these voltages will be on the lines
connected to the transformer (and the
pole) and would be redundant.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>Yes they have to, but a pole can carry
several lines or circuits in the same line. If
lines/circuits are operated at different
voltages, which one will serve the
transformer(s) exactly ?<br>
</div>
<div>Furthermore, even if a single line is
supported by the pole, which side of the
transformer is connected to it ?<br>
</div>
<div>I'm thinking of a pole carrying a "low
voltage" line used for distribution, hosting a
transformer at the top of it and the
transformer gets its power from an underground
"high voltage" cable rising up on the pole
itself. Then you'll need to know the voltages
of both cable and line AND the voltages of
transformer's sides to say the overhead "low
voltage" line is fed wheter by the primary or
secondary interface.</div>
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<div>It's a bit complex and I see no redundancy
here.<br>
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<div> </div>
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<div dir="auto">On a multi-level pole, the line where the
transformer is found may be indicated by a power route
relation, if there is. The pole where the transformer is found
may be tagged with the transformer role, and it is important
on lines with multiple circuits, but on single-circuit lines,
it is optional.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">And for a transformer feeding a low voltage line
from a high voltage underground cable rising on the pole
(through the pole itself, or on a concrete structure with
pipes embedded) I found some instances of it in the
Philippines. One example is a pole with three single-phase
transformers serving as a three-phase transformer, and the
primary comes from underneath.</div>
<div dir="auto"> </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"> <br>
Switches ... usually used for isolation.<br>
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<div>Can you elaborate a bit more please ?<br>
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Not certain what elaboration you need? Isolation ...is simply
turning a line off, for maintenance/repair.<br>
Switches on poles tend to be manual (mechanical). Switches in
substations and stations tend to be automatic. <br></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir="auto">Automatic switches are not limited to the substation environment, as I encounter this on the roadside distribution lines, common in the Philippines, as well on other Asian countries and the Americas; there are such switches outside, on poles, and operated through radio via a transmitter. And also do not forget to look at the picture at the table for switch types at power=switch on OSM Wiki (url: <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power=switch">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power=switch</a>). But, on a multi-level pole on a line with multiple circuits, a switch may occur at any cross-arm.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="quoted-text">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto">On a pole with two or more levels (i.e.
cross-arms), I used two solutions:</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"> 1. Tag the pole-mounted switch with switch=*
separated by pipes (|), so, for tagging a switch on the lowest
cross-arm of a two-level pole, it will be tagged
switch=|mechanical. So, for a switch on the upper cross-arm in
the same situation, it is vice versa (i.e. switch=mechanical|)</div>
<div dir="auto"> 2. On a relation of the line where the switch
belongs, tag the pole with the switch role.</div>
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<div>All the best<font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<font color="#888888">
<div>François</div>
</font></div>
</div>
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<p><br>
</p>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>