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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-05-10 21:08, Thilo Haug OSM
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:a406da2b-8f88-e42d-c51c-105a6e29a3d5@gmx.de"
type="cite">
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<p>Hi André,</p>
<p>according to this documentation, <br>
the tagging mailing list is the wrong platform to address this
:<br>
<font size="-1">"<b>If you have ideas for the wiki, you can
generally just do them, by editing the wiki! </b><br>
If you need any assistance the <b>wikiteam</b> are here to
help."<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki#Wikiteam">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wiki#Wikiteam</a></font><br>
</p>
</blockquote>
Have you perchance seen the long and multiple discussions about
noexit=yes and similar subjects?<br>
Yes, this place is exactly the one where to discuss that <b>tagging</b>
errors are made, what the wiki actually means, that it may be
misunderstood and that it should be clarified.<br>
<br>
In this case<span style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"> it
seems </span>clear <span
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap">to me that</span> <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway"
title="Key:cycleway">cycleway</a>=opposite*</tt> defines a
cycleway and some use it to tag a oneway exception.<br>
And that <tt style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway:bicycle"
title="Key:oneway:bicycle" class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</a>=no</tt>
is the access tag defining the oneway exception, that it is
sometimes omitted and that like misusing any access tag it produces
routing (GPS) errors. Some uncommented people openly laugh at OSM
routing globally; in contrast, I say "change this if you want better
routing" and I'm the one being criticized.<br>
The horror comes when someone said that a wiki article (he didn't
show which) deprecates <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway:bicycle"
title="Key:oneway:bicycle" class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</a>=no</tt>
and when the very attractive map <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/%7Eligfietser/fiets/"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/%7Eligfietser/fiets/</a>
introduces confusion.<br>
I have no time to make corrections and improvements to every wiki
topics that need it and I hope that the persons who wrote them or
acquaintances will listen and do it.<br>
<br>
For example, if I understood well, I'd recommend this or better:<br>
<span style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"></span><tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway"
title="Key:cycleway">cycleway</a>=opposite*</tt><span
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"></span> indicates the
presence of a sort of cycleway called "cycle plug", a very narrow
part of a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><tt dir="ltr"
class="mw-content-ltr" style="font-family: monospace, Courier;
font-size: 16.1px; direction: ltr; background: rgb(238, 238,
255);"><bdi style="white-space: nowrap;"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway:bicycle"
class="mw-redirect" title="Key:oneway:bicycle"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(11, 0, 128);
background: none;">oneway:bicycle</a></bdi>=<bdi>no</bdi></tt>
way that runs alongside it for cyclists to ride contraflow on.<br>
Just that and not a long explanation of contraflow, making believe
that it's the subject, with a seemingly casual mention of "cycle
plug" in the end where one may have stopped reading. And <tt
dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr" style="font-family: monospace,
Courier; font-size: 16.1px; direction: ltr; background: rgb(238,
238, 255);"><bdi style="white-space: nowrap;"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway:bicycle"
class="mw-redirect" title="Key:oneway:bicycle"
style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(11, 0, 128);
background: none;">oneway:bicycle</a></bdi>=<bdi>no</bdi></tt>
is not "normally" tagged with it but is the fundamental reason for
choosing the value "opposite" and hence mandatory.<br>
And I suggest replacing other possible explanations of that subject
scattered in the wiki with a pointer to the one and only.<br>
<br>
OSM and I thank you for your attention,<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:a406da2b-8f88-e42d-c51c-105a6e29a3d5@gmx.de"
type="cite">Unless some always ask for a proposal to edit /amend
anything in the wiki.<br>
IMHO this leads to the result you mentioned :<br>
"Unfortunately, I'm very sorry to say, OSM is often much of a
chaos."<br>
There seem to be very few people which first like to request a
request form <br>
to be able to help the community to improve *.<br>
<br>
A "code of conduct"** would be helpful in which cases <br>
you may just add a minor specification, unfortunately I couldn't
find such up to now.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Thilo<br>
<br>
<font size="-1">* For those who don't know the concept of sarcasm
:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm</a><br>
<br>
** Certainly this will also leave some (border) cases which are
disputable,<br>
but at least there would be SOME agreed guideline.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct</a></font><br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.05.2017 um 15:10 schrieb André
Pirard:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:59131136.4040908@gmail.com">
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
<br>
In this thread, I said, in agreement with others,<br>
that <tt style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway:bicycle"
title="Key:oneway:bicycle" class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</a>=no</tt>
(click to open that page) is the tag to be used <b>to tell
routing software</b><b> (GPS)</b> that <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:oneway"><strong
class="selflink">oneway</strong>=yes</a></tt><span
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"> does not apply
to bicycles<br>
that </span><tt style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"
dir="ltr"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway"
title="Key:cycleway">cycleway</a>=opposite*</tt> has
noting to do with routing and contraflow but indicates that <b>there
is a cycleway</b> that <b>happens</b> to be "opposite".<br>
<br>
Could you please make the wiki documentation more clear about
that?<br>
Because mappers often believe that <tt>cycleway=opposite</tt>
means to indicate bicycle contraflow <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><span
class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>.<br>
Unfortunately, sometimes contradictory sentences about the
same concept are often spread all over the wiki.<br>
Find them all!<br>
<br>
I have written <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://overpass-turbo.eu/?Q=%0A%5Bout%3Ajson%5D%5Btimeout%3A60%5D%3B%0A%2F%2F%20gather%20results%0A%28%0A%20%20%2F%2F%20query%20%0A%20way%5B%21%22oneway%3Abicycle%22%5D%5Bcycleway%7E%22opposite%22%5D%28%7B%7Bbbox%7D%7D%29%3B%0A%20%20%0A%29%3B%0A%2F%2F%20print%20results%0Aout%20body%3B%0A%3E%3B%0Aout%20skel%20qt%3B%0A%0A">this
script</a> to find where many <tt>cycleway=opposite*</tt>
exist without <tt style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"
dir="ltr"><span class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>
and even without <tt>oneway=yes</tt>.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/55150670"
moz-do-not-send="true">Look at this street</a> to which GRi
added <tt>cycleway=opposite</tt> without <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><span
class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>, to
which JanFi added <tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><span
class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>
probably after reading this thread (thank you!) and from which
I removed <tt>cycleway=opposite</tt> because there is no
cycleway at all.<br>
<br>
The worst of all is that the map <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/%7Eligfietser/fiets/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/%7Eligfietser/fiets/">http://mijndev.openstreetmap.nl/%7Eligfietser/fiets/</a></a>
shows "<tt>cycleway=opposite or </tt><tt
style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap" dir="ltr"><span
class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>" ways,
hence neither identifying the cycleways nor the contraflow
correctly and not testing in its bugs tag that <tt>cycleway=opposite</tt>
must contain <tt style="background:#EEF;white-space:nowrap"
dir="ltr"><span class="mw-redirect">oneway:bicycle</span>=no</tt>.<br>
That is pitiful complete misinformation and the author did not
even reply to my message.<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, I'm very sorry to say, OSM is often much of a
chaos.<br>
<br>
Hoping this will help,<br>
Cheers <br>
<br>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>André.</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Tagging mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a>
</pre>
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