<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06-Jul-17 07:33 PM, Martin
Koppenhoefer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPTjTDLJ0hWRfrK6zQHi+XkKZ94nQBn5U24jUdDo2n3awBPYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Currently (but also since almost the beginning), the
definitions of office in the wiki [1] are 2:<br>
</div>
<br>
- short: "A place of business, similar to shops"
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- longer: "A place predominantly selling services. These
may range from the obvious services such as accountants and
lawyers."<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>These definitions are not nearly suitable for someone to
understand what the tag is about, e.g. they would comprise car
repairs as well as haircutters, banks, etc, and they don't
help distinguishing the key from others like shop.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The documented values contain quite some things that don't
fit either (or only partially) definition:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>- association<br>
</div>
<div>- charity<br>
</div>
<div>- educational_institution<br>
</div>
<div>- employment_agency<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Some people (the public) go to employment agencies to seek
employment. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPTjTDLJ0hWRfrK6zQHi+XkKZ94nQBn5U24jUdDo2n3awBPYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>- forestry<br>
</div>
<div>- foundation (well, it might depend)<br>
</div>
<div>- government<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Some people go to government offices to seek things like driving
licences, passports. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPTjTDLJ0hWRfrK6zQHi+XkKZ94nQBn5U24jUdDo2n3awBPYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>- newspaper (ok, might be disputable)<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Yep. Some go to place advertisements, reprints of old
editions/photos<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPTjTDLJ0hWRfrK6zQHi+XkKZ94nQBn5U24jUdDo2n3awBPYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>- ngo<br>
</div>
<div>- political_party<br>
</div>
<div>- quango<br>
</div>
<div>- religion (disputable)<br>
</div>
<div>- tax (as it is explicitly about fiscal authorities and
revenue offices, not about consultants/tax advisors)<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>none of them (or only exceptionally) is _selling_ services.
The common denominator is that these places are administrative
workplaces, not selling goods (at least not primarily).<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suggest we change the definition.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>E.g. <br>
</div>
<div>short: an administrative workplace<br>
</div>
<div>longer: An administrative workplace, predominantly not
selling goods, and not primarily facing to the public. These
may range from the obvious services, such as architects,
accountants and lawyers, to government and ngo offices, etc..<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>With some reluctance I added the "not facing to the public"
(maybe this is not correct English btw?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Umm "not servicing the public" would be better .. but the meaning is
clear, so don't worry about it. <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABPTjTDLJ0hWRfrK6zQHi+XkKZ94nQBn5U24jUdDo2n3awBPYQ@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>) because these would/should be "amenity". E.g. there can
be an office=bank for the (internal) bank administration and
an amenity=bank for the places where clients go. Admittedly
this distinction isn't (yet?) completely realized in current
tagging, and I'm not sure if it should be there.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Comments?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
1) Everything is an amenity to someone! Highways are amenities, yet
they have a more specific key. Office and shop keys now exits to
more specifically tag these things. <br>
2) The amenity key is old. Some view it as the 'miscellaneous' key -
a place to put things that don't fit anywhere else. <br>
3) Many OSM keys and OSM values never went through the tagging group
.. and possibly could be better if they had.<br>
<br>
4) Most lawyers offices here serve the public. Law Society of NSW
lists lawyers that serve the public <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.lawsociety.com.au/community/findingalawyer/">https://www.lawsociety.com.au/community/findingalawyer/</a><br>
5) At least some government offices here serve the public. e.g NSW
government service centres for the public <a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/service-centre/service-nsw/2000">https://www.service.nsw.gov.au/service-centre/service-nsw/2000</a>
(you need to type in a postcode to see other areas - anything
between 2000 and 2999 might do)<br>
<br>
'Offices' that don't serve the public? I assume this is similar to
your bank example - where the 'office' is set up to serve the
operators internal requirements? <br>
Do those need to be mapped in OSM? Consider that they are of no
interest to the vast majority of map users? If mapped at all they
should have an access restriction on them. <br>
<br>
Other offices that I think do serve the public? Guides, tourist,
financial advisor, heath insurance, real estate, tax advisor, travel
agent... <br>
<br>
Dictionary definition of an office? Humm Oxford Dictionary gives <br>
<section class="etymology etym">
<div class="senseInnerWrapper">
<p>Origin: Middle English: via Old French from Latin officium
‘performance of a task’ (in medieval Latin also ‘office,
divine service’), based on opus ‘work’ + facere ‘do’.</p>
</div>
</section>
<span class="ind">Noun: definition 1: A room, set of rooms, or
building used as a place of business for non-manual work.<br>
<br>
The other definitions don't apply to what is being discussed. <br>
<br>
So OSM definition ? "A place (building or room/s) where a
non-manual, non-goods service is provided</span><span class="ind">."
??? <br>
<br>
Is that understandable? <br>
<br>
------------------<br>
What is a manual service? A panel beater for car smash repairs, a
hairdresser .. I'd put these as shops. <br>
But it is a close call, I think that the physical modification is
what swings it for me. <br>
<br>
Things that are in office that should not be there? <br>
The medical stuff - therapists etc, they should be under the
healthcare key system? <br>
<br>
-------------------<br>
Humm there are 'offices' that don't fit for me. <br>
I do go to forestry offices for advice on camping there (allowed
in this country at least .. but not when they are logging/planting
obviously). They also have good maps .. I do like maps. <br>
However of little to no interest to me;<br>
Political party offices .. well that would be like trade union
offices .. only those interested go there. But they are still
members of the public .. and even non members can go there - so
open to the public. <br>
I think the same holds true for the rest of the list .. it is
possible for the public to go there for something that they want.
<br>
<br>
So I can see others wanting to map them. <br>
<br>
<br>
</span><br>
</body>
</html>