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<p>Suction point is probably not the right word in English. I haven't found any specific idiomatic usage of this phrase, so it seems to just mean "point where suction is present/applied". Dry Hydrant seems a better fit for what you are discussing, do you agree?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nfpa.org/assets/gallery/firewise/operationWater/step3.htm">http://www.nfpa.org/assets/gallery/firewise/operationWater/step3.htm</a></p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.28dry.29_hydrants">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_hydrant#Non-pressurized_.28dry.29_hydrants</a></p>
<p>//colin</p>
<p>On 2017-08-17 12:32, Moritz wrote:</p>
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<div class="pre" style="margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: monospace"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">Hi François, hi Alberto,</span><br /> <br /> we had in the past days a discussion on the german OSM forum[<a href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352">3</a>] and agreed on the point that<br /> a point where you can suck water from a water source is a emergency=suction_point.<br /> Our understanding of a fire hydrant is, that it is connected to a water main and thus any<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction point is no fire hydrant.</span><br /> <br /> The special case of commercial area where the owner is responsible for the hydrants and the hydrants are fed by<br /> pumps from ground water or by tanks were not discussed (as Viking81 wrote on the discussion pages of [<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions">1</a>] and [<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well">2</a>]).<br /> <br /> As I am a firefighter by myself I think there is such thing, but I will figure out with the local fire department.<br /> <br /> We furthermore agreed that there is no need of my newly proposed tag emergency=fire_water_well as we can define<br /> the different types of suction points by adding appropriate tags for each type.<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">My point is suction points and fire hydrant are different but compatible things, as follow :<br /> emergency=suction_point is a prefered place where to pump water in a river</blockquote>
<span style="white-space: nowrap;">I think you meant from a river. But yes I agree.</span><br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=fire_hydrant</span><br /> is a kind of device which may or not be present in places like suction points but in a large amount of other places.</blockquote>
<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Nope.</span><br /> Fire hydrant: pressurized water from water main. Edge case of Vikings point not yet covered<br /> <br />
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<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">Hydrants that serve factories or shopping centers often are not connected to the public water main:<br /> instead they are connected to a private local water network fed by pumps that suck water from the ground.<br /> So these local water networks and their hydrants are fed by what we can call water wells.</blockquote>
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<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Suction points</span><br /> <br /> Points where the firefighter have to bring there own pump to suck water from pond, river or well.<br /> These suction points can be equipped with a pipe connected to the water or not. Something like this with pipe [<a href="http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg">4</a>][<a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg">5</a>][<a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg">6</a>].<br /> <br /> Or this [<a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg">7</a>][<a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg">8</a>] which also is a suction point, which can has a sign. But basically it's just an somehow prepared point to have<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">easier access to the water itself.</span><br /> <br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><br /> We need to know if the common accepted definition of suction point is this:<br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Suction points aren't devices like hydrants but are preferred places</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">to pump water from a not pressurized water source (river, pond, well).</span></blockquote>
<br /> Yes<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">Hydrant is an equipment/device and suction point is a place where you</span></blockquote>
Yes<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">may or not find a hydrant.</span></blockquote>
No. I would not call a pipe at a suction point hydrant (lack of pressured water).<br /> At least from my German point of view, because here pipe and hydrant look different.<br /> <br />
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0"><span style="white-space: nowrap;">In this case the hydrant will be tagged emergency=fire_hydrant +</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">fire_hydrant:pressure=0.</span></blockquote>
<br /> Nope, because then you have emergency=fire_hydrant but you have to bring your own pump to get water. To be sure you have to<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">evaluate the fire_hydrant:pressure tag to determine what it is.</span><br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Here is the outcome of the discussion in the German forum:</span><br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"># Suction point with pipe at a lake, river, stream etc (like [<a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg">5</a>])</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:source=water</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br /> <br /> <br /> # Suction point at fire_water_pond (artificially created pond, otherwise it is the above one)<br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:source=fire_water_pond</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:volume=# (volume in m^3)</span><br /> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br /> <br /> # Some prepared suction place at lake, river, stream etc, but without a pipe (like [<a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg">8</a>][<a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg">7</a>])<br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:type=suction_place</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:source=water</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"># Suction point at water_tank</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:source=water_tank</span><br /> suction_point:volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, small 150–300 m^3 und large>300 m^3; volume in m^3)<br /> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"># Normal fire water well</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:type=fire_water_well</span><br /> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">fire_water_well:type=suction</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">fire_water_well:water_level=# (distance water level-ground)</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"># Fire water well with integrated pump (electric or water driven pump)</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">emergency=suction_point</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:type=fire_water_well</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">suction_point:position=lane|parking_lot|sidewalk|green</span><br /> suction_point:productivity=small|medium|large|# (small: 400-800l/min, medium: 800-1600l/min, large: 1600+ l/min; l/min)<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">fire_water_well:type=bilge_pump|electric_pump</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">With this tagging scheme there are still some issues:</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">For productivity tag I just copied from the German standards.</span><br /> <br /> In case of a water_tank the volume belongs technically to the water_tank itself<br /> but not to the suction point. But I think it is more convenient because as water_tanks<br /> are usually hidden under ground they are not as visible as suction points. So I<br /> assume they will be not mapped as often as suction points. Other point: to get the volume<br /> information of the suction point you have also to check the next water_tank. Seems inconvenient.<br /> <br /> <br /> For the special case hydrants on commercial area sourced from pumps or water_tanks I would go for hydrant. Because<br /> the whole thing behaves more like a hydrant then a suction point (at least as long the tank is not empty or the wells<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">are not exhausted).</span><br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Why is a water well with an integrated pump not a hydrant:</span><br /> <br /> Special case of water well. And firefighters expect from a hydrant that they just have to connect there hose and get water easily.<br /> With the well with integrated pump you have to keep in mind that you have to bring a pump or a generator.<br /> <br /> <br /> I would suggest, that we discuss all stuff here, not on the wiki discussion page as long as no new participant shows up.<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Mailinglist is easier to use.</span><br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Cheers,</span><br /> Moritz<br /> <br /> <br /> [1] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_Hydrant_Extensions</a><br /> [2] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Fire_water_well</a><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">[3] <a href="https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352">https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=59352</a></span><br /> [4] <a href="http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg">http://www.feuerwehr-satow.de/typo3/uploads/pics/30012011_saugstelle.jpg</a><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">[5] <a href="http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg">http://home.teleos-web.de/fschubert4/gfx/Bild%20Saugstelle2.jpg</a></span><br /> [6] <a href="https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg">https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:French_hydrant_water_pond.jpg</a><br /> [7] <a href="http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg">http://www.infranken.de/storage/image/5/9/2/8/2498295_cms2image-fixedwidth-900x0_1pbCVs_61CvXH.jpg</a><br /> [8] <a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg/1200px-Zufahrt_zur_Saugstelle_der_Feuerwehr_in_Herbstein%2C_Vogelsberg%2C_Hessen_-_1.jpeg</a><br /> <br /> _______________________________________________<br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;">Tagging mailing list</span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"><a href="mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org">Tagging@openstreetmap.org</a></span><br /> <span style="white-space: nowrap;"><a href="https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging">https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging</a></span></div>
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